6 ms·

> Things like "hey is sustained 60 hours a week really acceptable" "why do I have to put work email on my phone and be responsive 24/7" and "it's been 7 years b

> Things like "hey is sustained 60 hours a week really acceptable" "why do I have to put work email on my phone and be responsive 24/7" and "it's been 7 years boss and we haven't gotten new workstations" are all things that are up for bargaining. Do SWEs in the US actually have any of these problems? Maybe I'm spoiled by my FAANG job but I find it hard to imagine these kinds of work conditions even at a non-FAANG tech company.

tmp_anon_22 5y ago
That's the thing, you have to fight these things even when they're not happening because over time they will happen. Everyone was surprised when Google and Apple came back hard against remote working but that's just what big businesses do. As software is increasingly commoditized over the next 5 decades we'll see a huge degradation in employee compensation even as profits for these companies continue to grow.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  How does one fight against things that aren't happening? "Hell no, boss; I won't do that thing that you're not even asking me to do! No; I don't have any idea what I'm yelling about either!"
  - tmp_anon_22 5y ago
    You're kidding right? Pre-planning for future events, like havesting food for the winter, is society 101.
    - endtime 5y ago
      You're conflating "fighting" with "preparing for".
- endtime 5y ago
  Google is allowing remote work, after a long period of being non-committal. Not sure what you mean when you say they "came back hard against [it]".
kesselvon 5y ago
This happens all the time at non-FAANG companies.
Apocryphon 5y ago
Pretty much all SWEs in Silicon Valley have had to work in open offices, which is a common grievance.
- endtime 5y ago
  Oh sure, I don't like open offices, but that's not the same as 60 hour weeks and 24/7 oncall.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    I tend to bring up open offices in unionization discussions as a very simple example of how SWEs, despite high demand and compensation, don’t nearly have as much leverage as we claim to do (lack of WFH, pre-COVID, is a more impactful variant.) Despite near universal worker complaint, it’s simply something that industry management has embraced and no amount of tweeting, blogging, or even studies (https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices) will make a difference. Does that mean a union should be built solely to put pressure to end open offices? No, but it does indicate that there are near-universal issues in the industry that such a union or professional association can address. Because without any organizing, management will just continue the status quo. There’s not even the added competition of some firms deciding to offer personal offices or at least cubicles as an alternative to woo candidates. It’s an example of something in industry that everyone complains about but no one can successfully challenge.
esotericimpl 5y ago
"Maybe I'm spoiled by my FAANG job" Yes that is correct.
cratermoon 5y ago
I think, by definition, having a FAANG job is being spoiled, but yes, the software industry has some pretty terrible practices. Look up, for example, the story of EA Spouse. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/18/crunched-games-industry-exploiting-workforce-ea-spouse-software https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/18/crunched-...
ex_amazon_sde 5y ago
Ex-Amazon here: burnout due to stressful work and on-call duties is the n. 1 reason for attrition. It's very well known that people leave FAANGs in general due to stress.
- endtime 5y ago
  Sorry to hear it. I guess FAANGs aren't interchangeable. I'm at Google - have been on 4 or 5 teams in 10 years - and that's unthinkable. Thanks for the data point, anyway.
  - ex_amazon_sde 5y ago
    > and that's unthinkable Google seems to be better in some ways, but I met plenty of ex-Googlers complaining about the stress and the competitive environment.

tmp_anon_22 5y ago

That's the thing, you have to fight these things even when they're not happening because over time they will happen. Everyone was surprised when Google and Apple came back hard against remote working but that's just what big businesses do. As software is increasingly commoditized over the next 5 decades we'll see a huge degradation in employee compensation even as profits for these companies continue to grow.

sokoloff 5y ago
How does one fight against things that aren't happening? "Hell no, boss; I won't do that thing that you're not even asking me to do! No; I don't have any idea what I'm yelling about either!"
- tmp_anon_22 5y ago
  You're kidding right? Pre-planning for future events, like havesting food for the winter, is society 101.
  - endtime 5y ago
    You're conflating "fighting" with "preparing for".
endtime 5y ago
Google is allowing remote work, after a long period of being non-committal. Not sure what you mean when you say they "came back hard against [it]".

kesselvon 5y ago

This happens all the time at non-FAANG companies.

Apocryphon 5y ago

Pretty much all SWEs in Silicon Valley have had to work in open offices, which is a common grievance.

endtime 5y ago
Oh sure, I don't like open offices, but that's not the same as 60 hour weeks and 24/7 oncall.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  I tend to bring up open offices in unionization discussions as a very simple example of how SWEs, despite high demand and compensation, don’t nearly have as much leverage as we claim to do (lack of WFH, pre-COVID, is a more impactful variant.) Despite near universal worker complaint, it’s simply something that industry management has embraced and no amount of tweeting, blogging, or even studies (https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices) will make a difference. Does that mean a union should be built solely to put pressure to end open offices? No, but it does indicate that there are near-universal issues in the industry that such a union or professional association can address. Because without any organizing, management will just continue the status quo. There’s not even the added competition of some firms deciding to offer personal offices or at least cubicles as an alternative to woo candidates. It’s an example of something in industry that everyone complains about but no one can successfully challenge.

esotericimpl 5y ago

"Maybe I'm spoiled by my FAANG job" Yes that is correct.

cratermoon 5y ago

I think, by definition, having a FAANG job is being spoiled, but yes, the software industry has some pretty terrible practices. Look up, for example, the story of EA Spouse. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/18/crunched-games-industry-exploiting-workforce-ea-spouse-software https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/18/crunched-...

ex_amazon_sde 5y ago

Ex-Amazon here: burnout due to stressful work and on-call duties is the n. 1 reason for attrition. It's very well known that people leave FAANGs in general due to stress.

endtime 5y ago
Sorry to hear it. I guess FAANGs aren't interchangeable. I'm at Google - have been on 4 or 5 teams in 10 years - and that's unthinkable. Thanks for the data point, anyway.
- ex_amazon_sde 5y ago
  > and that's unthinkable Google seems to be better in some ways, but I met plenty of ex-Googlers complaining about the stress and the competitive environment.