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Change.org workers form a union

110 points by everybodyknows 5y ago

echelon 5y ago
I honestly don't understand why tech workers want unions. We're extremely well compensated and are dictating changes like forever WFH. We have generous vacation, perks, 401k contribution, ... I want to get promoted because I work hard, not because of seniority. I want to be able to switch jobs or positions and not have to start at the bottom of the ladder. Why would we want this? Edit: Unions will put pressure on the United States' ability to compete with Europe and other nations. Labor will be less flexible, and it's likely that top talent will be paid much less. Costs, however, will increase and the entire US tech industry will suffer. We'll switch from nimble meritocracy to a regulated and calcified follower. The rest of the world will catch up. I don't get how that's good for the US. Also, seeing all of the Europeans in here commenting about an American issue is odd.
- ttmb 5y ago
  If you read the article, > Poché, [...] lives in Manhattan [...] earning just under $50,000 a year. That doesn't seem like "extremely well compensated"
  - TheFreim 5y ago
    Depends on working conditions and if they're required to work in high cost area or not.
    - ttmb 5y ago
      Working conditions... you mean the sort of things that unions tend to care about?
      - TheFreim 5y ago
        I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
  - collegecamp293 5y ago
    She works as a "Campaigner" according to LinkedIn and is 23. What is the median salary for 23 year olds in Manhattan? EDIT: I googled "median salary" in Manhattan (no age qualifier) and you guessed it...it's $50,000
    - dehrmann 5y ago
      I'll also add that as a "campaigner" working for someone like change.org, you can expect to make less because lots of people want to work in the these activist roles. It's similar to how game developers are paid less than b2b saas developers.
      - Vaslo 5y ago
        Always seems a shock to HN when the jobs that everyone wants that don’t require a very technical education tend to be on the low end. Well at least for the campaigner role.
    - lasagnaphil 5y ago
      The median salary of $50000 still seems a bit low to me considering how real estate must be pretty expensive in Manhattan. An okay-ish 1-bedroom apartment seems to be around at $2000 a month, which amounts to almost half of your salary (and I haven't really delved into the living costs of that area!)
  - olah_1 5y ago
    I can confirm that this is a common salary for someone just out of college, even in NYC yes. She may work in Manhattan but she doesn't need to live there. Many young people have roomies in Brooklyn. It's what you sign up for when you choose to live in NYC.
- phreeza 5y ago
  All those downsides you mention are not automatic consequences of having a union. Look at union jobs in Europe for a better example of how things can work out. All the nice perks you mention are completely at the discretion of your employer. Ask yourself this: Why would you voluntarily forgo leverage to be gained on your employer?
  - collegecamp293 5y ago
    Average pay for union jobs in Europe is far less than $50,000
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      And yet quality of life is much higher.
    - klyrs 5y ago
      That's one side of the equation; what's the cost of living?
      - missedthecue 5y ago
        According to the OECD, Americans have more disposable after adjusting for government transfers for things like healthcare, education, and childcare. And it's not even close. https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      Most unions in Europe are for blue collar work. In the UK (anecdotally) I've seen a lot more developers form cooperatives than unions, and even the cooperatives are fairly rare.
  - duxup 5y ago
    >Why would you voluntarily forgo leverage to be gained on your employer? Because in this case it isn't in Europe? I like the European tradition a lot more than the frequent outcomes with US unions. I've seen US unions where what the original poster describes is totally accurate.
- Nicksil 5y ago
  >We're extremely well compensated and are dictating changes like forever WFH. We have generous vacation, perks, 401k contribution, ... You presume this sort of compensation is enjoyed throughout our industry. It isn't.
  - Vaslo 5y ago
    That’s the beauty of the industry though. If you don’t like your work or don’t think you are compensated enough, you are free to apply and work at any number of other tech companies around the world.
- edoceo 5y ago
  Unions don't block those features you want. All Labor benefits from group power against Capital. Your job today benefits from Union efforts in decades past.
  - duxup 5y ago
    >Unions don't block those features you want. They can in some cases do, particularly in the US. It's still a possibility.
  - echelon 5y ago
    My job has nothing to do with unions of the past. edit: Fair points. I still believe that modern labor is a highly dynamical system. Many workers do need additional support and benefits, but our corner of the world is one of the best compensated and least regulated. Solutions for getting low-paid workers better equity shouldn't be used as a hammer -- workers earning six to seven figures do not need unions. Unions in tech will put downward pressure on our mobility, competitiveness, and compensation.
    - Nicksil 5y ago
      >My job has nothing to do with unions of the past. But you enjoy many of the benefits past union members fought and died for.
      - Vaslo 5y ago
        And we also have negative outcomes such as discounting worker education and experience (seniority should NEVER be valued over talent), restriction of work to narrow definitions leading to inefficiencies, the fact that the increased cost and decreased deficiencies hurt the product’s customers, and the list goes on and on. We owe a debt to those who worked to get us simple humane things like taking children out of coalmines and getting benefits for working beyond 40 hours per week. Those days are gone. Now they fight to keep people who get drunk on the job or try to tell our factories that some people should stand around and do nothing because asking them to help move some parts from one room to another isn’t in their narrowly defined job description.
- throw_m239339 5y ago
  > I honestly don't understand why tech workers want unions. Read Shopify's CEO speech about being a team and not a "family". Also read Coinbase CEO. These "tech unions" are PACS, not your traditional worker unions.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Because those who are marginalized are more important to me than those doing exceptional well, even if I’m doing exceptional well. I care little about promotions or status, nor does my job mean much to me other than income (it’s what I do with a small part of my life, not who I am), so I’m optimizing for different metrics than others. I have done well enough for a lifetime, and I’d rather spend my energy pulling the rest of folks up (both in comp and quality of life). Don’t wealthy people spend their time on philanthropy when they’re done hustling? I say, “why wait?” and do what you can where you are with what you have. Compensation has diminishing utility, while I have found compassionate efforts do not. YMMV. (Onward to legally mandated PTO, fewer day work weeks, wfh, and stronger labor rights for everyone; society grows great when old people plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in) Edit reply to your edit: Top talent is a small minority. You’re basically asking the majority “Why do you want better for all of yourselves at the detriment to the very few amongst us capturing a majority of the gains?”
- dharmab 5y ago
  Tech workers are not evenly compensated. If you work in FAANG or most enterprises, you're probably happy. Not if you work in gamedev, or many non-software oriented companies.
- ironmagma 5y ago
  When you say “we,” you are speaking from your perspective. The reason there are such high earners is that there are also low earners.
- chomp 5y ago
  Unions are nothing more than a way to negotiate with capital as a single entity. There's more to negotiating as a union than wringing more bennies out of the employer. Things like "hey is sustained 60 hours a week really acceptable" "why do I have to put work email on my phone and be responsive 24/7" and "it's been 7 years boss and we haven't gotten new workstations" are all things that are up for bargaining. It's about negotiating things as a group that would get you laughed at or demoted if you were to do it by yourself. Unions do not preclude promotions from merit. Unions do not preclude hiring people at the middle of the pay scale. Don't construct a straw man of the worst things you can think of, and package them up as the average union, because it isn't.
  - pydry 5y ago
    They can also lobby on moral grounds - e.g. cracking down on dark patterns, against doing business with abusive regimes or domestic concentration camp operators.
    - cratermoon 5y ago
      Also work against stack ranking, hire-to-fire, the ridiculous leetcode obsession, and other toxic workplace practices endemic to the industry.
  - endtime 5y ago
    > Things like "hey is sustained 60 hours a week really acceptable" "why do I have to put work email on my phone and be responsive 24/7" and "it's been 7 years boss and we haven't gotten new workstations" are all things that are up for bargaining. Do SWEs in the US actually have any of these problems? Maybe I'm spoiled by my FAANG job but I find it hard to imagine these kinds of work conditions even at a non-FAANG tech company.
    - tmp_anon_22 5y ago
      That's the thing, you have to fight these things even when they're not happening because over time they will happen. Everyone was surprised when Google and Apple came back hard against remote working but that's just what big businesses do. As software is increasingly commoditized over the next 5 decades we'll see a huge degradation in employee compensation even as profits for these companies continue to grow.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  > We're extremely well compensated and are dictating changes like forever WFH. We have generous vacation, perks, 401k contribution, ... Doctors, psychiatrists, and lawyers have professional associations. Professional athletes and Hollywood actors (as well as other film industry workers) are also unionized.
  - slavik81 5y ago
    Professional associations are from different from unions. The stated reason for the existence of a professional association is the protection of the public. Unions, on the other hand, exist for the benefit of their members.
  - Vaslo 5y ago
    I know several lawyers who barely have two nickels to rub together. If that’s what a professional association gets me, I’ll pass.
    - Apocryphon 5y ago
      There's a glut of lawyers, despite all of the gatekeeping and credentialing in that industry. Don't think you can blame it on the ABA for that. Not sure if they're the ones behind exorbitant law school tuitions either. Not to mention, that's only one profession out of several. What has the IEEE done against you lately?
- goodpoint 5y ago
  Unions do much more than negotiating salaries. The whole software industry could benefit from: - Setting quality standards. Ensuring people are properly trained and so on. E.g. Preventing Boeing from offshoring development of the MCAS to engineers paid $9 an hour. - Setting ethical standards. E.g. Preventing car pollution "defeat device". Providing legal support for whistleblowers. - Fighting ageism. It's provably widespread in SV. - Fighting the no-poaching agreements. Many FAANGs were found to be colluding. - Sighing exploitative immigration rules like the H1B "leash" that creates a class of underpaid workers. > We'll switch from nimble meritocracy to a regulated and calcified follower This is an absurd claim. Any human organization can be calcified or stay nimble. Unions are not different.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    > Setting ethical standards. E.g. Preventing car pollution "defeat device" Are VW engineers not part of a union/workers' council? If they are, um...
    - Nicksil 5y ago
      um... what? Finish your thought.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        OK, since you asked: Why did their membership in a union not preclude this outcome, given that one of the purported benefits of unions is to prevent such outcomes?
        goodpoint 5y ago
        This is like asking "why did greenpeace not preclude climate change". Because that behavior is widespread across the whole industry, across many countries and across 4/5 decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal Unions, just like any other non-governative organization, are just as powerful as people support them.
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  Broadly I agree with you but these aren't really tech workers, they sound more like soft sales to me...
none_to_remain 5y ago
I wonder if this effort will have the impact of a change.org petition
tengbretson 5y ago
217 is an astonishing number of employees to operate what appears to be a moderately-complex Wordpress install.
- j_walter 5y ago
  This was my first thought also. How is this not just a few people doing this as a hobby or second job. How much really goes into daily operations? I would think they are big enough to be known by most internet savvy people that they don't need marketing. I also don't understand this "Radha Nath, 30, a product designer at the company, said she is paid $16,000 less than she was at her last employer. The union will fight to bring wages across the company to the industry standard, she said." So she wasn't forced to work there...she voluntarily accepted less pay when she started. It's not like they duped her on what her pay would be right?
  - criddell 5y ago
    > So she wasn't forced to work there...she voluntarily accepted less pay when she started. It's not like they duped her on what her pay would be right? Isn't that true of every person working somewhere who then votes to unionize?
    - hokumguru 5y ago
      I think they mean that she voluntarily took a pay cut relative to her former place of employment. Which, in my opinion is an interesting take. Many people take pay cuts to work at start ups and it would be irresponsible to think that a 10 or even 200 person company could pay like FAANG. Salaries aren’t static across the industry.
      - criddell 5y ago
        There's a lot we don't know though. We don't know how long ago that was or what she was told to expect as far as salary increases go. Plus, Change.org is 14 years old now so I wouldn't really call it a startup anymore.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> Change.org is a $260 million company, according to a 2017 valuation provided by data analytics firm PitchBook. I honestly had no idea that change.org did anything beyond online petitions or that they had 217 employees. Their website doesn’t say much about how they make money, other than a link to become a member. Are they really pulling in significant amounts of money from contributions, or do they have some other business that isn’t immediately obvious? What am I missing?
- CameronNemo 5y ago
  They have this shady practice where you can donate to causes (like GoFundMe) and they take a cut. Well I guess it is the petition organizers who are shady, they are not always involved in the cause or obligated to do anything. Change.org just let's them do it. https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/10/21286385/change-org-george-floyd-chip-in-donation-feature-protest https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/10/21286385/change-org-georg... In a Medium post on Tuesday, more than 90 former Change.org employees called on the company to donate any related funds to Floyd’s family and organizers rather than using the funds to promote the campaign itself.
  - SamBam 5y ago
    They don't take a cut, they take the whole thing. The money goes straight to the company, and in return they promise to display the petition more prominently within the website itself. (They also occasionally use it to fund advertising to the website itself, as in the case of George Floyd.)
- vlunkr 5y ago
  According to wikipedia: The majority of the company's revenue is advertising - individuals and organisations who start or sign petitions then chip in to promote those petitions to other site visitors.
- opheliate 5y ago
  Change.org lets users pay to "promote petitions", which gives them more advertising on Change.org. I believe this is how the recommended petitions you're shown after signing one are selected. See https://help.change.org/s/article/Promoted-Petitions-FAQs?language=en_US https://help.change.org/s/article/Promoted-Petitions-FAQs?la...
adreamingsoul 5y ago
I don’t have much experience with unions. Here in Norway they seem to be common and a couple of my colleagues are union members. Employment is not “at-will” and so employees already have a lot of rights. From what I understand, the benefits of joining a union are more for salary negotiation, housing loans, and other life benefits. I’d be interested to learn more from anyone who has experience with unions in Norway.
- dominotw 5y ago
  > the benefits of joining a union are more for salary negotiation, USA has no unions and the highest pay for software engineers.
  - triceratops 5y ago
    Correlation != causation. American actors and athletes have unions. American actors and athletes are among the highest paid in the world.
    - dominotw 5y ago
      I wasn't implying that lack of unions is the cause of high pay, just that unions are not a prerequisite.
  - ngngngng 5y ago
    The exception that proves the rule
  - runarberg 5y ago
    Pay isn’t everything. There is also sick leave, payed vacation time, parental leave, job safety and security, privacy guarantees etc. USA software engineers are lacking in all of these. Many countries in Europe have those labor benefits as national law and unions are more about enforcing these rights, and protecting the workers from violation of them.
    - 5y ago
cblconfederate 5y ago
Does that mean that their change.org petitions dont work? oh my
subsubzero 5y ago
I don't get this: > I live in New York City," she said. "That doesn't go a long way. So you live in one of the most expensive cities in the world, and then complain when you aren't making enough to live in said city. Either quit the low paying position and find a better paying job or move to somewhere cheaper.
- cratermoon 5y ago
  Capitalists vastly overestimate the mobility of labor. Maybe she has reasons keeping her there that are none of your business. The "just move" or "just get a better job" refrain is hopelessly ignorant.
  - subsubzero 5y ago
    I couldn't disagree more with that statement. Mostly everyone I know from close family and friends have moved out of the bay area as its too expensive in the past 3 years. I also moved and me and my Wife are in tech and make great money, alot of the people I know are not in that situation. We all left as cost of living is stupidly high and I don't want to spend every penny I make on housing and other high costs that only exist there. Everyone is free to make their own choices of where to live and work and live with those consequences.
- lasagnaphil 5y ago
  I don't think moving to a different area is something easy to do as a person generally. (May be necessary, but still a hard and painful decision.) Maybe the person, even with all the city's faults, still have some affection towards her NYC neighborhood. She might have some friends important to her in the area that she doesn't want to be apart. Why should we assume the person would want to leave in the cold calculation of money and capital, ripping her off from what invaluable relationships she had in the area? People are not atomized rational machines hyper-optimizing for cost, they are in close relationship to the surrounding world and feel a sense of agency for being in such a relationship. And sometimes people will stay in their area even if the economic conditions aren't optimal, because they have something even more important to lose by moving away.
onthedownlow 5y ago
Their race percentages of both employees and leadership are in line with national demographics. Not trying to troll, but it sounds like they just don't like a certain "race".
- runarberg 5y ago
  What do you mean?
vt85 5y ago
Of course “Black Latina” would start this… Neo-Marxism advancing on all fronts, using minorities to break the ice…
sunshineforever 5y ago
Many low paid employees of change.org are likely involved in some kind of censorship program. To filter out the nasty.
zapataband1 5y ago
Most people in this thread discussing change.orgs business model instead of unionization. Most tech business do indeed thrive on continual exploitation of their workers while those on top make huge sums. Tech also has the added bonus of providing useful colorful apps that are used to exploit more workers: instacart, uber, etc etc. And also building the shiny weapons of future and existing police states.
loourr 5y ago
These brave woman and men are bringing the change we need to the change we want
supergirl 5y ago
change.org is pointless. there are official ways to petition governments. actually, change.org may be worse than pointless because it tricks people to think they actually did something by signing and prevents them from looking for better ways to address the issue
type0 5y ago
The most important petition today is redditarded "We want Jeff Bezos to buy and eat the Mona Lisa" https://www.change.org/p/reddit-we-want-jeff-bezos-to-buy-and-eat-the-mona-lisa https://www.change.org/p/reddit-we-want-jeff-bezos-to-buy-an... Please sign it if you also feel strongly about this issue
vt85 5y ago
And of course my comment got deleted… it’s simply ridiculous, you have got more freedom of speech in Soviet Union. Good job , Marxists.
axiosgunnar 5y ago
> "I live in New York City," she said. "[50k] doesn't go a long way." Sorry, but is living in the center of a high-end megacity tourist magnet a human right now? I want to live in the center of Monaco then, please. I‘ll take that blue yacht over there, thanks.

I honestly don't understand why tech workers want unions. We're extremely well compensated and are dictating changes like forever WFH. We have generous vacation, perks, 401k contribution, ... I want to get promoted because I work hard, not because of seniority. I want to be able to switch jobs or positions and not have to start at the bottom of the ladder. Why would we want this? Edit: Unions will put pressure on the United States' ability to compete with Europe and other nations. Labor will be less flexible, and it's likely that top talent will be paid much less. Costs, however, will increase and the entire US tech industry will suffer. We'll switch from nimble meritocracy to a regulated and calcified follower. The rest of the world will catch up. I don't get how that's good for the US. Also, seeing all of the Europeans in here commenting about an American issue is odd.

ttmb 5y ago
If you read the article, > Poché, [...] lives in Manhattan [...] earning just under $50,000 a year. That doesn't seem like "extremely well compensated"
- TheFreim 5y ago
  Depends on working conditions and if they're required to work in high cost area or not.
  - ttmb 5y ago
    Working conditions... you mean the sort of things that unions tend to care about?
    - TheFreim 5y ago
      I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
- collegecamp293 5y ago
  She works as a "Campaigner" according to LinkedIn and is 23. What is the median salary for 23 year olds in Manhattan? EDIT: I googled "median salary" in Manhattan (no age qualifier) and you guessed it...it's $50,000
  - dehrmann 5y ago
    I'll also add that as a "campaigner" working for someone like change.org, you can expect to make less because lots of people want to work in the these activist roles. It's similar to how game developers are paid less than b2b saas developers.
    - Vaslo 5y ago
      Always seems a shock to HN when the jobs that everyone wants that don’t require a very technical education tend to be on the low end. Well at least for the campaigner role.
  - lasagnaphil 5y ago
    The median salary of $50000 still seems a bit low to me considering how real estate must be pretty expensive in Manhattan. An okay-ish 1-bedroom apartment seems to be around at $2000 a month, which amounts to almost half of your salary (and I haven't really delved into the living costs of that area!)
- olah_1 5y ago
  I can confirm that this is a common salary for someone just out of college, even in NYC yes. She may work in Manhattan but she doesn't need to live there. Many young people have roomies in Brooklyn. It's what you sign up for when you choose to live in NYC.
phreeza 5y ago
All those downsides you mention are not automatic consequences of having a union. Look at union jobs in Europe for a better example of how things can work out. All the nice perks you mention are completely at the discretion of your employer. Ask yourself this: Why would you voluntarily forgo leverage to be gained on your employer?
- collegecamp293 5y ago
  Average pay for union jobs in Europe is far less than $50,000
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    And yet quality of life is much higher.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    That's one side of the equation; what's the cost of living?
    - missedthecue 5y ago
      According to the OECD, Americans have more disposable after adjusting for government transfers for things like healthcare, education, and childcare. And it's not even close. https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    Most unions in Europe are for blue collar work. In the UK (anecdotally) I've seen a lot more developers form cooperatives than unions, and even the cooperatives are fairly rare.
- duxup 5y ago
  >Why would you voluntarily forgo leverage to be gained on your employer? Because in this case it isn't in Europe? I like the European tradition a lot more than the frequent outcomes with US unions. I've seen US unions where what the original poster describes is totally accurate.
Nicksil 5y ago
>We're extremely well compensated and are dictating changes like forever WFH. We have generous vacation, perks, 401k contribution, ... You presume this sort of compensation is enjoyed throughout our industry. It isn't.
- Vaslo 5y ago
  That’s the beauty of the industry though. If you don’t like your work or don’t think you are compensated enough, you are free to apply and work at any number of other tech companies around the world.
edoceo 5y ago
Unions don't block those features you want. All Labor benefits from group power against Capital. Your job today benefits from Union efforts in decades past.
- duxup 5y ago
  >Unions don't block those features you want. They can in some cases do, particularly in the US. It's still a possibility.
- echelon 5y ago
  My job has nothing to do with unions of the past. edit: Fair points. I still believe that modern labor is a highly dynamical system. Many workers do need additional support and benefits, but our corner of the world is one of the best compensated and least regulated. Solutions for getting low-paid workers better equity shouldn't be used as a hammer -- workers earning six to seven figures do not need unions. Unions in tech will put downward pressure on our mobility, competitiveness, and compensation.
  - Nicksil 5y ago
    >My job has nothing to do with unions of the past. But you enjoy many of the benefits past union members fought and died for.
    - Vaslo 5y ago
      And we also have negative outcomes such as discounting worker education and experience (seniority should NEVER be valued over talent), restriction of work to narrow definitions leading to inefficiencies, the fact that the increased cost and decreased deficiencies hurt the product’s customers, and the list goes on and on. We owe a debt to those who worked to get us simple humane things like taking children out of coalmines and getting benefits for working beyond 40 hours per week. Those days are gone. Now they fight to keep people who get drunk on the job or try to tell our factories that some people should stand around and do nothing because asking them to help move some parts from one room to another isn’t in their narrowly defined job description.
throw_m239339 5y ago
> I honestly don't understand why tech workers want unions. Read Shopify's CEO speech about being a team and not a "family". Also read Coinbase CEO. These "tech unions" are PACS, not your traditional worker unions.
toomuchtodo 5y ago
Because those who are marginalized are more important to me than those doing exceptional well, even if I’m doing exceptional well. I care little about promotions or status, nor does my job mean much to me other than income (it’s what I do with a small part of my life, not who I am), so I’m optimizing for different metrics than others. I have done well enough for a lifetime, and I’d rather spend my energy pulling the rest of folks up (both in comp and quality of life). Don’t wealthy people spend their time on philanthropy when they’re done hustling? I say, “why wait?” and do what you can where you are with what you have. Compensation has diminishing utility, while I have found compassionate efforts do not. YMMV. (Onward to legally mandated PTO, fewer day work weeks, wfh, and stronger labor rights for everyone; society grows great when old people plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in) Edit reply to your edit: Top talent is a small minority. You’re basically asking the majority “Why do you want better for all of yourselves at the detriment to the very few amongst us capturing a majority of the gains?”
dharmab 5y ago
Tech workers are not evenly compensated. If you work in FAANG or most enterprises, you're probably happy. Not if you work in gamedev, or many non-software oriented companies.
ironmagma 5y ago
When you say “we,” you are speaking from your perspective. The reason there are such high earners is that there are also low earners.
chomp 5y ago
Unions are nothing more than a way to negotiate with capital as a single entity. There's more to negotiating as a union than wringing more bennies out of the employer. Things like "hey is sustained 60 hours a week really acceptable" "why do I have to put work email on my phone and be responsive 24/7" and "it's been 7 years boss and we haven't gotten new workstations" are all things that are up for bargaining. It's about negotiating things as a group that would get you laughed at or demoted if you were to do it by yourself. Unions do not preclude promotions from merit. Unions do not preclude hiring people at the middle of the pay scale. Don't construct a straw man of the worst things you can think of, and package them up as the average union, because it isn't.
- pydry 5y ago
  They can also lobby on moral grounds - e.g. cracking down on dark patterns, against doing business with abusive regimes or domestic concentration camp operators.
  - cratermoon 5y ago
    Also work against stack ranking, hire-to-fire, the ridiculous leetcode obsession, and other toxic workplace practices endemic to the industry.
- endtime 5y ago
  > Things like "hey is sustained 60 hours a week really acceptable" "why do I have to put work email on my phone and be responsive 24/7" and "it's been 7 years boss and we haven't gotten new workstations" are all things that are up for bargaining. Do SWEs in the US actually have any of these problems? Maybe I'm spoiled by my FAANG job but I find it hard to imagine these kinds of work conditions even at a non-FAANG tech company.
  - tmp_anon_22 5y ago
    That's the thing, you have to fight these things even when they're not happening because over time they will happen. Everyone was surprised when Google and Apple came back hard against remote working but that's just what big businesses do. As software is increasingly commoditized over the next 5 decades we'll see a huge degradation in employee compensation even as profits for these companies continue to grow.
Apocryphon 5y ago
> We're extremely well compensated and are dictating changes like forever WFH. We have generous vacation, perks, 401k contribution, ... Doctors, psychiatrists, and lawyers have professional associations. Professional athletes and Hollywood actors (as well as other film industry workers) are also unionized.
- slavik81 5y ago
  Professional associations are from different from unions. The stated reason for the existence of a professional association is the protection of the public. Unions, on the other hand, exist for the benefit of their members.
- Vaslo 5y ago
  I know several lawyers who barely have two nickels to rub together. If that’s what a professional association gets me, I’ll pass.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    There's a glut of lawyers, despite all of the gatekeeping and credentialing in that industry. Don't think you can blame it on the ABA for that. Not sure if they're the ones behind exorbitant law school tuitions either. Not to mention, that's only one profession out of several. What has the IEEE done against you lately?
goodpoint 5y ago
Unions do much more than negotiating salaries. The whole software industry could benefit from: - Setting quality standards. Ensuring people are properly trained and so on. E.g. Preventing Boeing from offshoring development of the MCAS to engineers paid $9 an hour. - Setting ethical standards. E.g. Preventing car pollution "defeat device". Providing legal support for whistleblowers. - Fighting ageism. It's provably widespread in SV. - Fighting the no-poaching agreements. Many FAANGs were found to be colluding. - Sighing exploitative immigration rules like the H1B "leash" that creates a class of underpaid workers. > We'll switch from nimble meritocracy to a regulated and calcified follower This is an absurd claim. Any human organization can be calcified or stay nimble. Unions are not different.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  > Setting ethical standards. E.g. Preventing car pollution "defeat device" Are VW engineers not part of a union/workers' council? If they are, um...
  - Nicksil 5y ago
    um... what? Finish your thought.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      OK, since you asked: Why did their membership in a union not preclude this outcome, given that one of the purported benefits of unions is to prevent such outcomes?
      - goodpoint 5y ago
        This is like asking "why did greenpeace not preclude climate change". Because that behavior is widespread across the whole industry, across many countries and across 4/5 decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal Unions, just like any other non-governative organization, are just as powerful as people support them.
LatteLazy 5y ago
Broadly I agree with you but these aren't really tech workers, they sound more like soft sales to me...

none_to_remain 5y ago

I wonder if this effort will have the impact of a change.org petition

tengbretson 5y ago

217 is an astonishing number of employees to operate what appears to be a moderately-complex Wordpress install.

j_walter 5y ago
This was my first thought also. How is this not just a few people doing this as a hobby or second job. How much really goes into daily operations? I would think they are big enough to be known by most internet savvy people that they don't need marketing. I also don't understand this "Radha Nath, 30, a product designer at the company, said she is paid $16,000 less than she was at her last employer. The union will fight to bring wages across the company to the industry standard, she said." So she wasn't forced to work there...she voluntarily accepted less pay when she started. It's not like they duped her on what her pay would be right?
- criddell 5y ago
  > So she wasn't forced to work there...she voluntarily accepted less pay when she started. It's not like they duped her on what her pay would be right? Isn't that true of every person working somewhere who then votes to unionize?
  - hokumguru 5y ago
    I think they mean that she voluntarily took a pay cut relative to her former place of employment. Which, in my opinion is an interesting take. Many people take pay cuts to work at start ups and it would be irresponsible to think that a 10 or even 200 person company could pay like FAANG. Salaries aren’t static across the industry.
    - criddell 5y ago
      There's a lot we don't know though. We don't know how long ago that was or what she was told to expect as far as salary increases go. Plus, Change.org is 14 years old now so I wouldn't really call it a startup anymore.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> Change.org is a $260 million company, according to a 2017 valuation provided by data analytics firm PitchBook. I honestly had no idea that change.org did anything beyond online petitions or that they had 217 employees. Their website doesn’t say much about how they make money, other than a link to become a member. Are they really pulling in significant amounts of money from contributions, or do they have some other business that isn’t immediately obvious? What am I missing?

CameronNemo 5y ago
They have this shady practice where you can donate to causes (like GoFundMe) and they take a cut. Well I guess it is the petition organizers who are shady, they are not always involved in the cause or obligated to do anything. Change.org just let's them do it. https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/10/21286385/change-org-george-floyd-chip-in-donation-feature-protest https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/10/21286385/change-org-georg... In a Medium post on Tuesday, more than 90 former Change.org employees called on the company to donate any related funds to Floyd’s family and organizers rather than using the funds to promote the campaign itself.
- SamBam 5y ago
  They don't take a cut, they take the whole thing. The money goes straight to the company, and in return they promise to display the petition more prominently within the website itself. (They also occasionally use it to fund advertising to the website itself, as in the case of George Floyd.)
vlunkr 5y ago
According to wikipedia: The majority of the company's revenue is advertising - individuals and organisations who start or sign petitions then chip in to promote those petitions to other site visitors.
opheliate 5y ago
Change.org lets users pay to "promote petitions", which gives them more advertising on Change.org. I believe this is how the recommended petitions you're shown after signing one are selected. See https://help.change.org/s/article/Promoted-Petitions-FAQs?language=en_US https://help.change.org/s/article/Promoted-Petitions-FAQs?la...

adreamingsoul 5y ago

I don’t have much experience with unions. Here in Norway they seem to be common and a couple of my colleagues are union members. Employment is not “at-will” and so employees already have a lot of rights. From what I understand, the benefits of joining a union are more for salary negotiation, housing loans, and other life benefits. I’d be interested to learn more from anyone who has experience with unions in Norway.

dominotw 5y ago
> the benefits of joining a union are more for salary negotiation, USA has no unions and the highest pay for software engineers.
- triceratops 5y ago
  Correlation != causation. American actors and athletes have unions. American actors and athletes are among the highest paid in the world.
  - dominotw 5y ago
    I wasn't implying that lack of unions is the cause of high pay, just that unions are not a prerequisite.
- ngngngng 5y ago
  The exception that proves the rule
- runarberg 5y ago
  Pay isn’t everything. There is also sick leave, payed vacation time, parental leave, job safety and security, privacy guarantees etc. USA software engineers are lacking in all of these. Many countries in Europe have those labor benefits as national law and unions are more about enforcing these rights, and protecting the workers from violation of them.
  - 5y ago

cblconfederate 5y ago

Does that mean that their change.org petitions dont work? oh my

subsubzero 5y ago

I don't get this: > I live in New York City," she said. "That doesn't go a long way. So you live in one of the most expensive cities in the world, and then complain when you aren't making enough to live in said city. Either quit the low paying position and find a better paying job or move to somewhere cheaper.

cratermoon 5y ago
Capitalists vastly overestimate the mobility of labor. Maybe she has reasons keeping her there that are none of your business. The "just move" or "just get a better job" refrain is hopelessly ignorant.
- subsubzero 5y ago
  I couldn't disagree more with that statement. Mostly everyone I know from close family and friends have moved out of the bay area as its too expensive in the past 3 years. I also moved and me and my Wife are in tech and make great money, alot of the people I know are not in that situation. We all left as cost of living is stupidly high and I don't want to spend every penny I make on housing and other high costs that only exist there. Everyone is free to make their own choices of where to live and work and live with those consequences.
lasagnaphil 5y ago
I don't think moving to a different area is something easy to do as a person generally. (May be necessary, but still a hard and painful decision.) Maybe the person, even with all the city's faults, still have some affection towards her NYC neighborhood. She might have some friends important to her in the area that she doesn't want to be apart. Why should we assume the person would want to leave in the cold calculation of money and capital, ripping her off from what invaluable relationships she had in the area? People are not atomized rational machines hyper-optimizing for cost, they are in close relationship to the surrounding world and feel a sense of agency for being in such a relationship. And sometimes people will stay in their area even if the economic conditions aren't optimal, because they have something even more important to lose by moving away.

onthedownlow 5y ago

Their race percentages of both employees and leadership are in line with national demographics. Not trying to troll, but it sounds like they just don't like a certain "race".

runarberg 5y ago
What do you mean?

vt85 5y ago

Of course “Black Latina” would start this… Neo-Marxism advancing on all fronts, using minorities to break the ice…

sunshineforever 5y ago

Many low paid employees of change.org are likely involved in some kind of censorship program. To filter out the nasty.

zapataband1 5y ago

Most people in this thread discussing change.orgs business model instead of unionization. Most tech business do indeed thrive on continual exploitation of their workers while those on top make huge sums. Tech also has the added bonus of providing useful colorful apps that are used to exploit more workers: instacart, uber, etc etc. And also building the shiny weapons of future and existing police states.

loourr 5y ago

These brave woman and men are bringing the change we need to the change we want

supergirl 5y ago

change.org is pointless. there are official ways to petition governments. actually, change.org may be worse than pointless because it tricks people to think they actually did something by signing and prevents them from looking for better ways to address the issue

type0 5y ago

The most important petition today is redditarded "We want Jeff Bezos to buy and eat the Mona Lisa" https://www.change.org/p/reddit-we-want-jeff-bezos-to-buy-and-eat-the-mona-lisa https://www.change.org/p/reddit-we-want-jeff-bezos-to-buy-an... Please sign it if you also feel strongly about this issue

vt85 5y ago

And of course my comment got deleted… it’s simply ridiculous, you have got more freedom of speech in Soviet Union. Good job , Marxists.

axiosgunnar 5y ago

> "I live in New York City," she said. "[50k] doesn't go a long way." Sorry, but is living in the center of a high-end megacity tourist magnet a human right now? I want to live in the center of Monaco then, please. I‘ll take that blue yacht over there, thanks.