6 ms·

Edward Bernays

58 points by FridayoLeary 5y ago

ncmncm 5y ago
Edward Bernays's toxic shadow looms large over the 20th century, and we are nowhere near escaping its baleful legacy.
raspyberr 5y ago
Part 1 of the excellent The Century of Self gives a good overview of his impact. /watch?v=DnPmg0R1M04
pizza 5y ago
Propaganda is a pretty nice, short, readable book
- raintrees 5y ago
  I am almost halfway through, but have halted several times due to unhappiness/outrage at the hubris... To me, it reads equivalent to "most people are too dumb to know what's best for them, government and corporations have a duty to trick them into what they know is right behavior and values." For me, it really taps into the terrible misfortune caused by those who think they are smart enough to attempt to enforce how other people should live/behave.
  - pizza 5y ago
    Yes I agree. In some respects it's quite a malicious, misanthropic read. I encourage everyone to take a look, though. I also think that more and more, I disagree with the book's outlook that people are more or less like putty and can be bent into doing anything you want - I've come to see people as strong in their fundamental convictions yet open to things they don't have any fundamental disagreements with. And more than willing to let you guide them in the direction of things they already wanted. Sort of an Adam Curtis outlook I guess.
  - kaycebasques 5y ago
    It's interesting that we had such different takes on it. To me Bernays did somewhat of a public service by letting the genie out of the bottle and sharing these ideas publicly. Whether or not we like it, it's happening, and by writing a book about it he made it more possible for society at large to detect and counter these tactics. Of course I know that he was in this system and used these tactics himself for wealth and power. He probably wrote the book to further his own name. But he may have legitimately had the public interest in mind, also. > The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    "most people are too dumb to know what's best for them, government and corporations have a duty to trick them into what they know is right behavior and values." This attitude is what makes me wary of the current top-down attempts to rein in misinformation on the web. There is a visible assumption that people are not to be trusted and must be lead somewhere. If necessary, by a bit of force. (Deletions, bans.) Trading misinformation for a nanny-knows-best authority that manipulates you into its preferred position is not much of a trade at all. Either we accept diversity of humanity (including morons), or we will edge our societies towards benevolent informational autocracy that won't stay benevolent forever. I strongly prefer the former, dealing with morons, even though it is not pleasant.
    - mcshay79 5y ago
      There has always been a war on information, it's just more in the open now. Clandestine organizations have kept heavily guarded secrets for millenia and the democratization of communication via the internet is now being clamped down through censorship in the form of shadow-banning, as well as both broad and targeted espionage AKA intellligence.
  - samhh 5y ago
    One could argue that the effectiveness of propaganda that stems from this viewpoint proves its premise. Whether that makes propaganda of any given form justifiable is another matter.
shrubble 5y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Randolph https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Randolph Bernays' nephew... first CEO of Netflix.
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  Their Epstein documentary Filthy Rich was a master exercise in propaganda. Never watched their Bill Gates one but have to assume it was the same.
uniqueuid 5y ago
Sad to see that we're still not quite free from the clutches of mass psychology (i.e. the assumption that masses as such can be manipulated). By the way, "if then" by Jill Lepore is a great book about how tech translated this approach even in the 60s. (https://scholar.harvard.edu/jlepore/publications/if-then-how-simulmatics-corporation-invented-future https://scholar.harvard.edu/jlepore/publications/if-then-how...)
- baal80spam 5y ago
  > the assumption that masses as such can be manipulated I'm curious - do you think it isn't true? I see it every day.
  - uniqueuid 5y ago
    The core issue is whether masses have a distinct element beyond being a sum of malleable individuals. Mass psychology at the beginning of the 20th century thought so, and some research throughout the 70s and 80s continued to do so. Recent works have been less eager to assume a distinct "mass identity", and I'd also be hesitant to assume one exists (beyond corner cases such as mass panics).
    - sumtechguy 5y ago
      Perhaps. But he applied what he thought to these things. Such as making smoking more popular than it should have been. Then on the other end making it less popular. Using the same tools. He basically in a few years was able to convince half the population to start smoking. But I do have to admit bacon at breakfast is pretty sweet. Mass marketing as of the style he did had a profound impact on our lives. Even until this very day. But think about this. Why are companies like facebook, google and others hoovering up whatever data they can about you? Because while the 'mass' part works up to a point. If they can also add in targeted information they can add a few % to whatever they want to convert you to. The mass marketing primes you to take in the targeted bits. It is quite a clever manipulation.
      - 5y ago
kaycebasques 5y ago
I suggest contrasting Century Of The Self (the documentary) with Propaganda (Edward Bernays' book). Century makes him out to be somewhat of a villain whereas after reading Propaganda I got more of a sense that Bernays was tapping into something powerful and hadn't thought of all the shitty second-order and third-order effects of his methods. Still shady no doubt but less of a villain IMO. It also helps to "empty the cup" and remember that they lived through this stuff in realtime whereas we bring all of the baggage of subsequent history. For example in Century they talk about how Bernays associated cigarettes with female empowerment. For me I bring all these judgments of how terrible that was precisely because I know how terrible cigarettes are for health. But they had much less of an idea that "cigarettes = bad" back then. Of course the general technique of associating identity with consumer products is still problematic and that's probably the core idea that Century wanted to get across.
- AndrewUnmuted 5y ago
  > after reading Propaganda I got more of a sense that Bernays was tapping into something powerful and hadn't thought of all the shitty second-order and third-order effects of his methods. The most important thing to remember about Propaganda is that it, too, is propaganda. Bernays wanted this book to help normalize the use of propaganda within the commercial sector since this is how he made his living.
  - rwnspace 5y ago
    A wise point, it took me a while to realise this - intellectual honesty can lead to the habitual expectation it will be reciprocated and upheld by others.
  - davidivadavid 5y ago
    That's true, but that doesn't mean the argument he lays out isn't grounded on a sound analysis for the most part.
- surfingdino 5y ago
  The same documentary claims that it was the cigarette manufacturers who were looking to make more money from the other half of the population--women who at the time did not smoke as it was considered unladylike. Bernays was happy to spin a made up story to tap into that underdeveloped market. If you read that Wikipedia page closely you will find that he was happy to engage in projects that are hard to defend on moral grounds like setting up a fake news agency. He later rebranded propaganda as public relations, but his methods have not changed. His 'Propaganda' was admired by Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi minister of ... Propaganda.
recursivedoubts 5y ago
“There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.” ― Edward L. Bernays "The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes." ― Benjamin Disraeli A theme worth exploring...
- Method-X 5y ago
  Very interesting. Any recommendations on where I can start?
  - spacec0wb0y 5y ago
    Adam Curtis
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
js2 5y ago
See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Opinion_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Opinion_(book) And then there's always this quote: Edwards : Why the big secret? People are smart. They can handle it. Kay : A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.
mcshay79 5y ago
Edward Bernays is responsible for the propaganda campaign that led to compulsory water fluoridation across America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations_campaigns_of_Edward_Bernays https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations_campaigns_of_... . Think about that one.
pksebben 5y ago
What do we do about this? How does one go about jamming this kind of signal? I want to inoculate people against this kind of nonsense. IMO, if we were capable of decentralizing more of our systems, that might help. Reduce the efficacy of these tactics and you might be able to starve the beast. Culturally, I think doing away with hero worship could go a long way towards mitigating Bernays-style influencing. But then, how do you execute on that? If I could fix just one problem, I wouldn't be upset if it were this one. It's such a sticky mess, though.

Edward Bernays

58 points by FridayoLeary 5y ago

ncmncm 5y ago

Edward Bernays's toxic shadow looms large over the 20th century, and we are nowhere near escaping its baleful legacy.

raspyberr 5y ago

Part 1 of the excellent The Century of Self gives a good overview of his impact. /watch?v=DnPmg0R1M04

pizza 5y ago

Propaganda is a pretty nice, short, readable book

raintrees 5y ago
I am almost halfway through, but have halted several times due to unhappiness/outrage at the hubris... To me, it reads equivalent to "most people are too dumb to know what's best for them, government and corporations have a duty to trick them into what they know is right behavior and values." For me, it really taps into the terrible misfortune caused by those who think they are smart enough to attempt to enforce how other people should live/behave.
- pizza 5y ago
  Yes I agree. In some respects it's quite a malicious, misanthropic read. I encourage everyone to take a look, though. I also think that more and more, I disagree with the book's outlook that people are more or less like putty and can be bent into doing anything you want - I've come to see people as strong in their fundamental convictions yet open to things they don't have any fundamental disagreements with. And more than willing to let you guide them in the direction of things they already wanted. Sort of an Adam Curtis outlook I guess.
- kaycebasques 5y ago
  It's interesting that we had such different takes on it. To me Bernays did somewhat of a public service by letting the genie out of the bottle and sharing these ideas publicly. Whether or not we like it, it's happening, and by writing a book about it he made it more possible for society at large to detect and counter these tactics. Of course I know that he was in this system and used these tactics himself for wealth and power. He probably wrote the book to further his own name. But he may have legitimately had the public interest in mind, also. > The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  "most people are too dumb to know what's best for them, government and corporations have a duty to trick them into what they know is right behavior and values." This attitude is what makes me wary of the current top-down attempts to rein in misinformation on the web. There is a visible assumption that people are not to be trusted and must be lead somewhere. If necessary, by a bit of force. (Deletions, bans.) Trading misinformation for a nanny-knows-best authority that manipulates you into its preferred position is not much of a trade at all. Either we accept diversity of humanity (including morons), or we will edge our societies towards benevolent informational autocracy that won't stay benevolent forever. I strongly prefer the former, dealing with morons, even though it is not pleasant.
  - mcshay79 5y ago
    There has always been a war on information, it's just more in the open now. Clandestine organizations have kept heavily guarded secrets for millenia and the democratization of communication via the internet is now being clamped down through censorship in the form of shadow-banning, as well as both broad and targeted espionage AKA intellligence.
- samhh 5y ago
  One could argue that the effectiveness of propaganda that stems from this viewpoint proves its premise. Whether that makes propaganda of any given form justifiable is another matter.

shrubble 5y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Randolph https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Randolph Bernays' nephew... first CEO of Netflix.

AndrewBissell 5y ago
Their Epstein documentary Filthy Rich was a master exercise in propaganda. Never watched their Bill Gates one but have to assume it was the same.

uniqueuid 5y ago

Sad to see that we're still not quite free from the clutches of mass psychology (i.e. the assumption that masses as such can be manipulated). By the way, "if then" by Jill Lepore is a great book about how tech translated this approach even in the 60s. (https://scholar.harvard.edu/jlepore/publications/if-then-how-simulmatics-corporation-invented-future https://scholar.harvard.edu/jlepore/publications/if-then-how...)

baal80spam 5y ago
> the assumption that masses as such can be manipulated I'm curious - do you think it isn't true? I see it every day.
- uniqueuid 5y ago
  The core issue is whether masses have a distinct element beyond being a sum of malleable individuals. Mass psychology at the beginning of the 20th century thought so, and some research throughout the 70s and 80s continued to do so. Recent works have been less eager to assume a distinct "mass identity", and I'd also be hesitant to assume one exists (beyond corner cases such as mass panics).
  - sumtechguy 5y ago
    Perhaps. But he applied what he thought to these things. Such as making smoking more popular than it should have been. Then on the other end making it less popular. Using the same tools. He basically in a few years was able to convince half the population to start smoking. But I do have to admit bacon at breakfast is pretty sweet. Mass marketing as of the style he did had a profound impact on our lives. Even until this very day. But think about this. Why are companies like facebook, google and others hoovering up whatever data they can about you? Because while the 'mass' part works up to a point. If they can also add in targeted information they can add a few % to whatever they want to convert you to. The mass marketing primes you to take in the targeted bits. It is quite a clever manipulation.
    - 5y ago

kaycebasques 5y ago

I suggest contrasting Century Of The Self (the documentary) with Propaganda (Edward Bernays' book). Century makes him out to be somewhat of a villain whereas after reading Propaganda I got more of a sense that Bernays was tapping into something powerful and hadn't thought of all the shitty second-order and third-order effects of his methods. Still shady no doubt but less of a villain IMO. It also helps to "empty the cup" and remember that they lived through this stuff in realtime whereas we bring all of the baggage of subsequent history. For example in Century they talk about how Bernays associated cigarettes with female empowerment. For me I bring all these judgments of how terrible that was precisely because I know how terrible cigarettes are for health. But they had much less of an idea that "cigarettes = bad" back then. Of course the general technique of associating identity with consumer products is still problematic and that's probably the core idea that Century wanted to get across.

AndrewUnmuted 5y ago
> after reading Propaganda I got more of a sense that Bernays was tapping into something powerful and hadn't thought of all the shitty second-order and third-order effects of his methods. The most important thing to remember about Propaganda is that it, too, is propaganda. Bernays wanted this book to help normalize the use of propaganda within the commercial sector since this is how he made his living.
- rwnspace 5y ago
  A wise point, it took me a while to realise this - intellectual honesty can lead to the habitual expectation it will be reciprocated and upheld by others.
- davidivadavid 5y ago
  That's true, but that doesn't mean the argument he lays out isn't grounded on a sound analysis for the most part.
surfingdino 5y ago
The same documentary claims that it was the cigarette manufacturers who were looking to make more money from the other half of the population--women who at the time did not smoke as it was considered unladylike. Bernays was happy to spin a made up story to tap into that underdeveloped market. If you read that Wikipedia page closely you will find that he was happy to engage in projects that are hard to defend on moral grounds like setting up a fake news agency. He later rebranded propaganda as public relations, but his methods have not changed. His 'Propaganda' was admired by Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi minister of ... Propaganda.

recursivedoubts 5y ago

“There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.” ― Edward L. Bernays "The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes." ― Benjamin Disraeli A theme worth exploring...

Method-X 5y ago
Very interesting. Any recommendations on where I can start?
- spacec0wb0y 5y ago
  Adam Curtis

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

js2 5y ago

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Opinion_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Opinion_(book) And then there's always this quote: Edwards : Why the big secret? People are smart. They can handle it. Kay : A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

mcshay79 5y ago

Edward Bernays is responsible for the propaganda campaign that led to compulsory water fluoridation across America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations_campaigns_of_Edward_Bernays https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations_campaigns_of_... . Think about that one.

pksebben 5y ago

What do we do about this? How does one go about jamming this kind of signal? I want to inoculate people against this kind of nonsense. IMO, if we were capable of decentralizing more of our systems, that might help. Reduce the efficacy of these tactics and you might be able to starve the beast. Culturally, I think doing away with hero worship could go a long way towards mitigating Bernays-style influencing. But then, how do you execute on that? If I could fix just one problem, I wouldn't be upset if it were this one. It's such a sticky mess, though.