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>Then, she told them that actual grass-roots organizations like theirs were socially dangerous, because they wouldn't stick to their original mission but inevit

>Then, she told them that actual grass-roots organizations like theirs were socially dangerous, because they wouldn't stick to their original mission but inevitably became cults, essentially. After OWS I find it hard to disagree with this statement.

h2odragon 5y ago
Build enough organization to effectively work towards a goal, say passing a particular bill; and once the goal is met, the bill is passed, it seems such a shameful waste to let the organization dissolve, when it could be re-purposed to another similar use. Recycling is good in other contexts, right? Also, sometimes, the organization was built and the cause fought as a route to empowerment for the people doing the organizing, in which case the goals are irrelevant. Sometimes the goals were the true reason, in the beginning, but the empowerment becomes too seductive and they fall aside. Humans is tough to wrangle.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  The problem with organizational metastization is that it optimizes towards the organizational and regulatory structure, vs the organization's original intent. E.g. Directors become whoever is most capable of winning and holding a directorship. Donations funnel to whatever solicits more donations. Texas style regular tear-downs, or at least periodic reauthorizations, aren't the worst solution.
  - natmaka 5y ago
    IMHO useful thoughts: Pournelle's Iron law of bureaucracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Pournelle#Pournelle.27s_iron_law_of_bureaucracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Pournelle#Pournelle.27s_... Buffet's institutional imperative: https://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/1989.html https://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/1989.html Ousterhout's most important component of evolution: https://web.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/sayings.php https://web.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/sayings.php Leopold Kohr and Bertrand de Jouvenel had more detailed pertinent observations and thoughts.
rhn_mk1 5y ago
What's OWS?
- bcaa7f3a8bbc 5y ago
  Occupy Wall Street
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
mtoner23 5y ago
Absolutely, Also see Sunrise Movement
ropans808 5y ago
Is OWS a cult now? Or socially dangerous? Or relevant?
- pc86 5y ago
  None of the above
- NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
  I'm just gonna leave this here: https://i.imgur.com/C19LgH8.jpg https://i.imgur.com/C19LgH8.jpg
cbozeman 5y ago
The problem with these "movements" and "organizations" is that they usually have very clearly defined goals and they come together to solve a specific problem. I don't think any of the people coming together realize that, once they solve their problem, they're put themselves out of a job. In a rational world, they would go find other causes to champion, but instead you see "mission creep", because no one wants to go through the hassle of building up an organization into a multi-million, or multi-billion dollar organization, only to have to dissolve it once you "win" your war, and then go build yet another organization to tackle yet another problem, although this is exactly what should be happening. We're seeing this with civil rights right now. Any person who thinks the LGBTQ+-whatever community is actively discriminated against at a federal, and even at a state, level, is frankly being dramatic at best and mentally unbalanced at worst. But there are no "easy" major wars left to fight. This is an easy one that - in the minds of the "soldiers" at least - can be won with little money and nothing but a Twitter account. Beating climate change, conquering income inequality, etc.; those are long hard wars that will require lots of money, lots of time, lots of defeats, and lots of pain. Most people aren't going to sign up for that when they can complain that there isn't a non-binary bathroom in Mom & Pop burger joint down the street, so they must be transphobes.
- jsabo 5y ago
  Yeah I suppose the laws currently being passed in dozens of states across the country are actually fully in support of LGBTQ+ communities and aren't in fact discrimination.

h2odragon 5y ago

Build enough organization to effectively work towards a goal, say passing a particular bill; and once the goal is met, the bill is passed, it seems such a shameful waste to let the organization dissolve, when it could be re-purposed to another similar use. Recycling is good in other contexts, right? Also, sometimes, the organization was built and the cause fought as a route to empowerment for the people doing the organizing, in which case the goals are irrelevant. Sometimes the goals were the true reason, in the beginning, but the empowerment becomes too seductive and they fall aside. Humans is tough to wrangle.

ethbr0 5y ago
The problem with organizational metastization is that it optimizes towards the organizational and regulatory structure, vs the organization's original intent. E.g. Directors become whoever is most capable of winning and holding a directorship. Donations funnel to whatever solicits more donations. Texas style regular tear-downs, or at least periodic reauthorizations, aren't the worst solution.
- natmaka 5y ago
  IMHO useful thoughts: Pournelle's Iron law of bureaucracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Pournelle#Pournelle.27s_iron_law_of_bureaucracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Pournelle#Pournelle.27s_... Buffet's institutional imperative: https://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/1989.html https://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/1989.html Ousterhout's most important component of evolution: https://web.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/sayings.php https://web.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/sayings.php Leopold Kohr and Bertrand de Jouvenel had more detailed pertinent observations and thoughts.

rhn_mk1 5y ago

What's OWS?

bcaa7f3a8bbc 5y ago
Occupy Wall Street
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

mtoner23 5y ago

Absolutely, Also see Sunrise Movement

ropans808 5y ago

Is OWS a cult now? Or socially dangerous? Or relevant?

pc86 5y ago
None of the above
NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
I'm just gonna leave this here: https://i.imgur.com/C19LgH8.jpg https://i.imgur.com/C19LgH8.jpg

cbozeman 5y ago

The problem with these "movements" and "organizations" is that they usually have very clearly defined goals and they come together to solve a specific problem. I don't think any of the people coming together realize that, once they solve their problem, they're put themselves out of a job. In a rational world, they would go find other causes to champion, but instead you see "mission creep", because no one wants to go through the hassle of building up an organization into a multi-million, or multi-billion dollar organization, only to have to dissolve it once you "win" your war, and then go build yet another organization to tackle yet another problem, although this is exactly what should be happening. We're seeing this with civil rights right now. Any person who thinks the LGBTQ+-whatever community is actively discriminated against at a federal, and even at a state, level, is frankly being dramatic at best and mentally unbalanced at worst. But there are no "easy" major wars left to fight. This is an easy one that - in the minds of the "soldiers" at least - can be won with little money and nothing but a Twitter account. Beating climate change, conquering income inequality, etc.; those are long hard wars that will require lots of money, lots of time, lots of defeats, and lots of pain. Most people aren't going to sign up for that when they can complain that there isn't a non-binary bathroom in Mom & Pop burger joint down the street, so they must be transphobes.

jsabo 5y ago
Yeah I suppose the laws currently being passed in dozens of states across the country are actually fully in support of LGBTQ+ communities and aren't in fact discrimination.