4 ms·

This isn't true. I understand the economics and that a fairly administered carbon tax would be good, but other systems like cap and trade with targeted legislat

This isn't true. I understand the economics and that a fairly administered carbon tax would be good, but other systems like cap and trade with targeted legislation do actually work in practice. Take the province of Ontario, for example.

dempsey 5y ago
Or the Nox and Sox cap and trade market that started it all. https://www.epa.gov/acidrain/acid-rain-program https://www.epa.gov/acidrain/acid-rain-program
gpm 5y ago
Ontarian here, did I miss something? Last I checked we just had a straight up carbon tax. I don't think we do the import tariffs part though, unfortunately.
- 3pt14159 5y ago
  You did miss something. The Wynne government implemented a cap and trade system before the federal mandated carbon pricing system came into place and also implemented many other policies like an outright ban on coal power plants. If you look at GHG emissions for the period and compare them to the rest of Canada, Ontario did better than average. Not perfect, of course, but to say that the only way to bring down GHG emissions is via a carbon tax is just not true.
  - gpm 5y ago
    Do you have some sources where I can read about the impact that that program had? From some quick googling that was in place from January 1st, 2017 to July 3rd 2018, while the Canada wide (sort of) carbon tax was implemented in the GHGPPA, which looks like it came into effect June 21, 2018. You have a sample period of ~1 year, it seems like you're comparing cap and trade to "nothing"? The difference provinces in Canada are vastly different in terms of geography, industry, power sources, other laws, etc. My prior is that it's not going to be good evidence of basically anything, it was too short with no real controls, but I could be wrong. And certainly I don't disagree that there are other ways to bring down carbon emissions... but I am skeptical that they will be particularly effective. [1] Cap and trade dates: https://www.ontario.ca/page/cap-and-trade-ontario https://www.ontario.ca/page/cap-and-trade-ontario [2] GHGPPA dates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_Gas_Pollution_Pricing_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_Gas_Pollution_Prici...
ArkanExplorer 5y ago
Cap and trade adds a huge regulatory and bureaucratic burden to what should be a simple price signal (maybe that's the purpose?) For example in the EU, the carbon price had fallen too low, so credits were arbitrarily pulled out of the market to force the price up.
- ajmurmann 5y ago
  Might the too low price be a signal that the cap wasn't set nearly aggressive enough?

dempsey 5y ago

Or the Nox and Sox cap and trade market that started it all. https://www.epa.gov/acidrain/acid-rain-program https://www.epa.gov/acidrain/acid-rain-program

gpm 5y ago

Ontarian here, did I miss something? Last I checked we just had a straight up carbon tax. I don't think we do the import tariffs part though, unfortunately.

3pt14159 5y ago
You did miss something. The Wynne government implemented a cap and trade system before the federal mandated carbon pricing system came into place and also implemented many other policies like an outright ban on coal power plants. If you look at GHG emissions for the period and compare them to the rest of Canada, Ontario did better than average. Not perfect, of course, but to say that the only way to bring down GHG emissions is via a carbon tax is just not true.
- gpm 5y ago
  Do you have some sources where I can read about the impact that that program had? From some quick googling that was in place from January 1st, 2017 to July 3rd 2018, while the Canada wide (sort of) carbon tax was implemented in the GHGPPA, which looks like it came into effect June 21, 2018. You have a sample period of ~1 year, it seems like you're comparing cap and trade to "nothing"? The difference provinces in Canada are vastly different in terms of geography, industry, power sources, other laws, etc. My prior is that it's not going to be good evidence of basically anything, it was too short with no real controls, but I could be wrong. And certainly I don't disagree that there are other ways to bring down carbon emissions... but I am skeptical that they will be particularly effective. [1] Cap and trade dates: https://www.ontario.ca/page/cap-and-trade-ontario https://www.ontario.ca/page/cap-and-trade-ontario [2] GHGPPA dates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_Gas_Pollution_Pricing_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_Gas_Pollution_Prici...

ArkanExplorer 5y ago

Cap and trade adds a huge regulatory and bureaucratic burden to what should be a simple price signal (maybe that's the purpose?) For example in the EU, the carbon price had fallen too low, so credits were arbitrarily pulled out of the market to force the price up.

ajmurmann 5y ago
Might the too low price be a signal that the cap wasn't set nearly aggressive enough?