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Any climate policy other than a carbon tax (with tariffs on goods from non-participating countries) is going to be a failure - it will be shot through with loop

Any climate policy other than a carbon tax (with tariffs on goods from non-participating countries) is going to be a failure - it will be shot through with loopholes and rebates, such that little reduction is actually achieved.

3pt14159 5y ago
This isn't true. I understand the economics and that a fairly administered carbon tax would be good, but other systems like cap and trade with targeted legislation do actually work in practice. Take the province of Ontario, for example.
- dempsey 5y ago
  Or the Nox and Sox cap and trade market that started it all. https://www.epa.gov/acidrain/acid-rain-program https://www.epa.gov/acidrain/acid-rain-program
- gpm 5y ago
  Ontarian here, did I miss something? Last I checked we just had a straight up carbon tax. I don't think we do the import tariffs part though, unfortunately.
  - 3pt14159 5y ago
    You did miss something. The Wynne government implemented a cap and trade system before the federal mandated carbon pricing system came into place and also implemented many other policies like an outright ban on coal power plants. If you look at GHG emissions for the period and compare them to the rest of Canada, Ontario did better than average. Not perfect, of course, but to say that the only way to bring down GHG emissions is via a carbon tax is just not true.
    - gpm 5y ago
      Do you have some sources where I can read about the impact that that program had? From some quick googling that was in place from January 1st, 2017 to July 3rd 2018, while the Canada wide (sort of) carbon tax was implemented in the GHGPPA, which looks like it came into effect June 21, 2018. You have a sample period of ~1 year, it seems like you're comparing cap and trade to "nothing"? The difference provinces in Canada are vastly different in terms of geography, industry, power sources, other laws, etc. My prior is that it's not going to be good evidence of basically anything, it was too short with no real controls, but I could be wrong. And certainly I don't disagree that there are other ways to bring down carbon emissions... but I am skeptical that they will be particularly effective. [1] Cap and trade dates: https://www.ontario.ca/page/cap-and-trade-ontario https://www.ontario.ca/page/cap-and-trade-ontario [2] GHGPPA dates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_Gas_Pollution_Pricing_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_Gas_Pollution_Prici...
- ArkanExplorer 5y ago
  Cap and trade adds a huge regulatory and bureaucratic burden to what should be a simple price signal (maybe that's the purpose?) For example in the EU, the carbon price had fallen too low, so credits were arbitrarily pulled out of the market to force the price up.
  - ajmurmann 5y ago
    Might the too low price be a signal that the cap wasn't set nearly aggressive enough?
adrianN 5y ago
You're optimistic if you assume that a carbon tax will not be made useless via some loopholes or other means.
- gruez 5y ago
  What do you suggest instead? How will that not be "made useless via some loopholes or other means"?
  - adrianN 5y ago
    I unfortunately don't have a good answer to that. I also believe that a carbon price, together with regulations, is our best bet. I'm however rather pessimistic when it comes to preventing catastrophic warming.

3pt14159 5y ago

This isn't true. I understand the economics and that a fairly administered carbon tax would be good, but other systems like cap and trade with targeted legislation do actually work in practice. Take the province of Ontario, for example.

dempsey 5y ago
Or the Nox and Sox cap and trade market that started it all. https://www.epa.gov/acidrain/acid-rain-program https://www.epa.gov/acidrain/acid-rain-program
gpm 5y ago
Ontarian here, did I miss something? Last I checked we just had a straight up carbon tax. I don't think we do the import tariffs part though, unfortunately.
- 3pt14159 5y ago
  You did miss something. The Wynne government implemented a cap and trade system before the federal mandated carbon pricing system came into place and also implemented many other policies like an outright ban on coal power plants. If you look at GHG emissions for the period and compare them to the rest of Canada, Ontario did better than average. Not perfect, of course, but to say that the only way to bring down GHG emissions is via a carbon tax is just not true.
  - gpm 5y ago
    Do you have some sources where I can read about the impact that that program had? From some quick googling that was in place from January 1st, 2017 to July 3rd 2018, while the Canada wide (sort of) carbon tax was implemented in the GHGPPA, which looks like it came into effect June 21, 2018. You have a sample period of ~1 year, it seems like you're comparing cap and trade to "nothing"? The difference provinces in Canada are vastly different in terms of geography, industry, power sources, other laws, etc. My prior is that it's not going to be good evidence of basically anything, it was too short with no real controls, but I could be wrong. And certainly I don't disagree that there are other ways to bring down carbon emissions... but I am skeptical that they will be particularly effective. [1] Cap and trade dates: https://www.ontario.ca/page/cap-and-trade-ontario https://www.ontario.ca/page/cap-and-trade-ontario [2] GHGPPA dates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_Gas_Pollution_Pricing_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_Gas_Pollution_Prici...
ArkanExplorer 5y ago
Cap and trade adds a huge regulatory and bureaucratic burden to what should be a simple price signal (maybe that's the purpose?) For example in the EU, the carbon price had fallen too low, so credits were arbitrarily pulled out of the market to force the price up.
- ajmurmann 5y ago
  Might the too low price be a signal that the cap wasn't set nearly aggressive enough?

adrianN 5y ago

You're optimistic if you assume that a carbon tax will not be made useless via some loopholes or other means.

gruez 5y ago
What do you suggest instead? How will that not be "made useless via some loopholes or other means"?
- adrianN 5y ago
  I unfortunately don't have a good answer to that. I also believe that a carbon price, together with regulations, is our best bet. I'm however rather pessimistic when it comes to preventing catastrophic warming.