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Interesting how closely this tracks the geographic dispersion of haplogroup R1b. It’s practically certain this innovation spread by migration and conquest, whic

by User23 5y ago

Interesting how closely this tracks the geographic dispersion of haplogroup R1b. It’s practically certain this innovation spread by migration and conquest, which implies a certain level of central authority.

sudosysgen 5y ago
Is it? R1b is also in Central Africa and Central Asia, while at the same time the weights were coming originally from Mesopotamia/Anatolia where haplogroups J and E are more common. Also, Kings don't always bring their haplogroups, I come from a place where haplogroup E is crushingly dominant yet we were ruled by kings with groups J and R for over a millennia.
AlotOfReading 5y ago
Why do you think that conclusion is 'practically certain'? R1b diffusion in most of continental Europe predates these dates by thousands of years and as the paper notes, there's no evidence of conquest or unified governance across this region in this time period.
- User23 5y ago
  How is the extirpation of the indigenous Y haplogroup by immigrant R1b people not evidence of conquest? We’re talking several millenia BP it’s not as though we’re going to find formal declarations of war. As for the timing, it lines up just fine under the hypotheses based on Reich’s genetic data instead of inaccurate proxies like potsherds.
  - AlotOfReading 5y ago
    Are you perhaps mixing up events? "Extirpation of indigenous european haplogroups" is a phrase I'd associate with the WHG/EEF boundary. Clearly we're not talking about that. I don't think I need to point out that extirpation of EEF-associated populations didn't occur either and isn't particularly relevant since one of the main areas these weights were found was Sardinia. The paper is also talking about a period that begins in the eastern Mediterranean around 3k BCE, moves through southern Europe, and eventually ends up in Northern Europe and Britain around ~1k BCE. It's clearly not associated with WSHs.

by User23 5y ago

sudosysgen 5y ago

Is it? R1b is also in Central Africa and Central Asia, while at the same time the weights were coming originally from Mesopotamia/Anatolia where haplogroups J and E are more common. Also, Kings don't always bring their haplogroups, I come from a place where haplogroup E is crushingly dominant yet we were ruled by kings with groups J and R for over a millennia.

AlotOfReading 5y ago

Why do you think that conclusion is 'practically certain'? R1b diffusion in most of continental Europe predates these dates by thousands of years and as the paper notes, there's no evidence of conquest or unified governance across this region in this time period.

User23 5y ago
How is the extirpation of the indigenous Y haplogroup by immigrant R1b people not evidence of conquest? We’re talking several millenia BP it’s not as though we’re going to find formal declarations of war. As for the timing, it lines up just fine under the hypotheses based on Reich’s genetic data instead of inaccurate proxies like potsherds.
- AlotOfReading 5y ago
  Are you perhaps mixing up events? "Extirpation of indigenous european haplogroups" is a phrase I'd associate with the WHG/EEF boundary. Clearly we're not talking about that. I don't think I need to point out that extirpation of EEF-associated populations didn't occur either and isn't particularly relevant since one of the main areas these weights were found was Sardinia. The paper is also talking about a period that begins in the eastern Mediterranean around 3k BCE, moves through southern Europe, and eventually ends up in Northern Europe and Britain around ~1k BCE. It's clearly not associated with WSHs.