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I suspect we are all the prisoners of long-dead economists. Their ideas of people as atomic resources were useful abstractions in some ways (I agree with the po

I suspect we are all the prisoners of long-dead economists. Their ideas of people as atomic resources were useful abstractions in some ways (I agree with the point below that their work has led to great material prosperity), but they have also influenced entire generations of overly bureaucratic and inhumane policies. People are treated as "things" to be "managed," and as a consequence they develop learned helplessness.

jkhdigital 5y ago
Economics is the new god, the god of materialism. At some point in the 20th century we decided that material prosperity is really all you need for a happy and healthy society. Doesn’t seem to be working out so well…
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  By what measure? (Not sure I disagree just curious)
  - jkhdigital 5y ago
    It's a good and fair question, and of course I'm going to dodge it because I wasn't prepared to defend my statement. Probably should have ended with a rhetorical question instead.
  - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
    If I may attempt to answer it: Because it works for politicians, and the line of people behind the politicians with their left hands offering $X and their right hands demanding special treatment worth 100x$X.
    - bosie 5y ago
      whats the measure here?
- handmodel 5y ago
  I never get what motivates people to blame the system here. If you have 150k in the bank you could go to a remote place in the US, take a lowkey job where you work 25 hours a week, and live perfectly fine. No one is stopping you. The only reason you don't do this is because you like nice things, nice food cooked for you, nice immenities, and want your kids to have material prosperity.
  - xnxn 5y ago
    I just cut out avocado toast and now I'm well on my way to 150k!
    - kaybe 5y ago
      How much is an avocado in the US?
      - vorpalhex 5y ago
        About $0.60 for a small one, up to $1.20 for a large one. Parent is referencing this joke: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/avocado-toast https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/avocado-toast
  - jlongr 5y ago
    You're making some very large assumptions about the reader's circumstances and motivations: >you have 150k in the bank >no one is stopping you >the only reason you don't... Overall I think your response is not convincing. The problems of materialism are systemic because materialism is baked into the culture and institutions of the US. People are thus motivated to blame the system.
  - Sophistifunk 5y ago
    Do you have any idea how few people have $150k in the bank?
mc32 5y ago
Economists just try to explain things. They don't make economics. The nation and enterprises big small in concert make an economic system. But, go back far enough in the past before nations and businesses and economics were still in play. It's like numbers, it exists even if we are ignorant of it.
- planet-and-halo 5y ago
  Ideally that'd be true, but many economists are prescriptive and help make policy. (I also don't mean to pick on economists especially; many other intellectual enclaves have contributed to current management philosophies and national policies.)
- ryloric 5y ago
  Explain things to what end? So that we can use those explanations to make economic decisions which they can explain again. Even the least prescriptive economist is going to be a part of this cycle.
- aaron-santos 5y ago
  Normative[1] economics[2] is[3] definitely[4] a[5] thing[6]. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/normativeeconomics.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/normativeeconomics.asp [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_economics [3] https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/economics/normative-economics/ https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/ec... [4] https://marketbusinessnews.com/financial-glossary/normative-economics-definition-meaning/ https://marketbusinessnews.com/financial-glossary/normative-... [5] https://www.soas.ac.uk/cedep-demos/000_P570_IEEP_K3736-Demo/unit1/page_16.htm https://www.soas.ac.uk/cedep-demos/000_P570_IEEP_K3736-Demo/... [6] https://www.cairn.info/revue-d-economie-politique-2018-2-page-191.htm https://www.cairn.info/revue-d-economie-politique-2018-2-pag...
- vincentmarle 5y ago
  Milton Friedman is a good example of an economist who actively tried to influence economic policy
toomanyducks 5y ago
This. It's really easy to view our neoliberal climate as wholly dependent on the individual when you're priveralaged and already, in some way, succeeding. I did, and then I came out as trans, and also as nonbinary. Now, 'the system' is so much more important. Old white men's opinions on my existence could take away my transition (both medical and social) and my life with enough effort, or they could simply deny efforts to improve it (as they so often do). And I can't imagine what it would be like to deal with this and/or be non-white, disabled, or non-rich, for a few examples. In some ways I'm lucky to understand both perspectives, but the perspective of the unprivelaged matters so much more. This is why I feel that an individual contribution from my life is not enough. No matter how many fires I put out in people's homes, there's still going to be that fucking arsonist.

jkhdigital 5y ago

Economics is the new god, the god of materialism. At some point in the 20th century we decided that material prosperity is really all you need for a happy and healthy society. Doesn’t seem to be working out so well…

paulryanrogers 5y ago
By what measure? (Not sure I disagree just curious)
- jkhdigital 5y ago
  It's a good and fair question, and of course I'm going to dodge it because I wasn't prepared to defend my statement. Probably should have ended with a rhetorical question instead.
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  If I may attempt to answer it: Because it works for politicians, and the line of people behind the politicians with their left hands offering $X and their right hands demanding special treatment worth 100x$X.
  - bosie 5y ago
    whats the measure here?
handmodel 5y ago
I never get what motivates people to blame the system here. If you have 150k in the bank you could go to a remote place in the US, take a lowkey job where you work 25 hours a week, and live perfectly fine. No one is stopping you. The only reason you don't do this is because you like nice things, nice food cooked for you, nice immenities, and want your kids to have material prosperity.
- xnxn 5y ago
  I just cut out avocado toast and now I'm well on my way to 150k!
  - kaybe 5y ago
    How much is an avocado in the US?
    - vorpalhex 5y ago
      About $0.60 for a small one, up to $1.20 for a large one. Parent is referencing this joke: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/avocado-toast https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/avocado-toast
- jlongr 5y ago
  You're making some very large assumptions about the reader's circumstances and motivations: >you have 150k in the bank >no one is stopping you >the only reason you don't... Overall I think your response is not convincing. The problems of materialism are systemic because materialism is baked into the culture and institutions of the US. People are thus motivated to blame the system.
- Sophistifunk 5y ago
  Do you have any idea how few people have $150k in the bank?

mc32 5y ago

Economists just try to explain things. They don't make economics. The nation and enterprises big small in concert make an economic system. But, go back far enough in the past before nations and businesses and economics were still in play. It's like numbers, it exists even if we are ignorant of it.

planet-and-halo 5y ago
Ideally that'd be true, but many economists are prescriptive and help make policy. (I also don't mean to pick on economists especially; many other intellectual enclaves have contributed to current management philosophies and national policies.)
ryloric 5y ago
Explain things to what end? So that we can use those explanations to make economic decisions which they can explain again. Even the least prescriptive economist is going to be a part of this cycle.
aaron-santos 5y ago
Normative[1] economics[2] is[3] definitely[4] a[5] thing[6]. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/normativeeconomics.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/normativeeconomics.asp [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_economics [3] https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/economics/normative-economics/ https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/ec... [4] https://marketbusinessnews.com/financial-glossary/normative-economics-definition-meaning/ https://marketbusinessnews.com/financial-glossary/normative-... [5] https://www.soas.ac.uk/cedep-demos/000_P570_IEEP_K3736-Demo/unit1/page_16.htm https://www.soas.ac.uk/cedep-demos/000_P570_IEEP_K3736-Demo/... [6] https://www.cairn.info/revue-d-economie-politique-2018-2-page-191.htm https://www.cairn.info/revue-d-economie-politique-2018-2-pag...
vincentmarle 5y ago
Milton Friedman is a good example of an economist who actively tried to influence economic policy

toomanyducks 5y ago

This. It's really easy to view our neoliberal climate as wholly dependent on the individual when you're priveralaged and already, in some way, succeeding. I did, and then I came out as trans, and also as nonbinary. Now, 'the system' is so much more important. Old white men's opinions on my existence could take away my transition (both medical and social) and my life with enough effort, or they could simply deny efforts to improve it (as they so often do). And I can't imagine what it would be like to deal with this and/or be non-white, disabled, or non-rich, for a few examples. In some ways I'm lucky to understand both perspectives, but the perspective of the unprivelaged matters so much more. This is why I feel that an individual contribution from my life is not enough. No matter how many fires I put out in people's homes, there's still going to be that fucking arsonist.