4 ms·

I don't see the point of this tool, independent of the resulting code being derivative of GPL code or not. being able to produce valid code is not the bottlene

I don't see the point of this tool, independent of the resulting code being derivative of GPL code or not. being able to produce valid code is not the bottleneck of any developer effort. no projects fail because code can't be typed quickly enough. the bottleneck is understanding how the code works, how to design things correctly, how to make changes in accordance with the existing design, how to troubleshoot existing code, etc. this tool doesn't make anything any easier! it makes things harder, because now you have running software that was written by no one and is understood by no one.

fckthisguy 5y ago
Whilst I absolutely agree that writing code fast enough isn't the bottleneck, it's always nice to have tools that reduce repeat code writing. I use the React plugin for Webstorm to avoid having to write the boilerplate for FCs. Maybe in the future Copilot will replace that usage.
- ImprobableTruth 5y ago
  To me that - and really any form of common boilerplate - is just evidence that we're lacking abstractions. If your editor is generating code for you, that means that the 'real' programming language you're using 'in your head' has some metaprogramming facilities emulated by your IDE. I think we should strive to improve our programming languages to make less of this boilerplate necessary, not to make generating boiler plate easier. The latter is just going to make software less and less wieldy. Imagine the horror if instead of (relatively) higher level programming languages like C we were all just using assembly with code generation.
  - kemitchell 5y ago
    In a very real sense, we are all just using assembly with code generation. I really like your point on symptoms of insufficient abstraction. I do worry that we always see abstraction as belonging in language. Which in turn we treat as a precious singleton, and fight about. At least in my own hacking, I'm surprised how infrequently I see programmers write programs that write programs. I'm surprised how infrequently I see programmers programming their shell, editor, or IDE.
  - catlifeonmars 5y ago
    I’ve read this argument before and I don’t buy it. Boilerplate is an emergent property of composable abstractions.
mslm 5y ago
Have to fully agree; just seems like a "cool" tool where if you had to actually use it for real world projects, it's going to slow you down significantly, and you'll only admit it once the honeymoon period is over.
bobsomers 5y ago
Completely agree. If anything, I see tools like this actually decreasing engineering speed. I don't see how it doesn't lead to shipping large quantities of code the team didn't vet carefuly, which has is a recipe for subtle and hard to find bugs. Those kinds of bugs are much more expensive to find a squash. What we really need aren't tools that help us write code faster, but tools that help us understand the design of our systems and the interaction complexity of that design.
izgzhen 5y ago
It doesn’t calm to solve the bottleneck either. On the contrary, it clearly states that its mission is to solve the easy parts better so developers can focus better on the true challenging engineering problems as you mentioned.
- uncomputation 5y ago
  This reminds me of a startup pitch where it’s always “oh we take care of x so you don’t have to,” but the problem is now I just have another thing to take care of. I cannot speak for people who use Copilot “fluently,” but I know for every chunk of code it spat out I would need to read every line and make sure “Is this right? Is the return type what I want? Will this loop terminate? Is ‘scan’ the right API? Is that string formatted properly? Can I optimize this?” etc. To me it’s hardly “solving the easy parts,” but rather putting the passenger’s hands on the wheel.
  - gotostatement 5y ago
    Upvoted. I think the only good use case for this is spitting out 10-line, annoying, commonly used API boilerplate for commonly used APIs
    - izgzhen 5y ago
      That is a valid use case despite being small and incremental. I think it will still be helpful to some people.
  - izgzhen 5y ago
    The easy part is the copy-paste-from-SO part ;)
- naikrovek 5y ago
  if it doesn't claim to help any code production bottlenecks, then what good is it? it's just piping in code that may or may not contain a subtle bug or three. That doesn't help anyone!! I am usually pretty pro-Microsoft, but this tool is a security nightmare and a bad idea all around. It will cause many (most? all?) who use it far more work than it saves them, long-term.

fckthisguy 5y ago

Whilst I absolutely agree that writing code fast enough isn't the bottleneck, it's always nice to have tools that reduce repeat code writing. I use the React plugin for Webstorm to avoid having to write the boilerplate for FCs. Maybe in the future Copilot will replace that usage.

ImprobableTruth 5y ago
To me that - and really any form of common boilerplate - is just evidence that we're lacking abstractions. If your editor is generating code for you, that means that the 'real' programming language you're using 'in your head' has some metaprogramming facilities emulated by your IDE. I think we should strive to improve our programming languages to make less of this boilerplate necessary, not to make generating boiler plate easier. The latter is just going to make software less and less wieldy. Imagine the horror if instead of (relatively) higher level programming languages like C we were all just using assembly with code generation.
- kemitchell 5y ago
  In a very real sense, we are all just using assembly with code generation. I really like your point on symptoms of insufficient abstraction. I do worry that we always see abstraction as belonging in language. Which in turn we treat as a precious singleton, and fight about. At least in my own hacking, I'm surprised how infrequently I see programmers write programs that write programs. I'm surprised how infrequently I see programmers programming their shell, editor, or IDE.
- catlifeonmars 5y ago
  I’ve read this argument before and I don’t buy it. Boilerplate is an emergent property of composable abstractions.

mslm 5y ago

Have to fully agree; just seems like a "cool" tool where if you had to actually use it for real world projects, it's going to slow you down significantly, and you'll only admit it once the honeymoon period is over.

bobsomers 5y ago

Completely agree. If anything, I see tools like this actually decreasing engineering speed. I don't see how it doesn't lead to shipping large quantities of code the team didn't vet carefuly, which has is a recipe for subtle and hard to find bugs. Those kinds of bugs are much more expensive to find a squash. What we really need aren't tools that help us write code faster, but tools that help us understand the design of our systems and the interaction complexity of that design.

izgzhen 5y ago

It doesn’t calm to solve the bottleneck either. On the contrary, it clearly states that its mission is to solve the easy parts better so developers can focus better on the true challenging engineering problems as you mentioned.

uncomputation 5y ago
This reminds me of a startup pitch where it’s always “oh we take care of x so you don’t have to,” but the problem is now I just have another thing to take care of. I cannot speak for people who use Copilot “fluently,” but I know for every chunk of code it spat out I would need to read every line and make sure “Is this right? Is the return type what I want? Will this loop terminate? Is ‘scan’ the right API? Is that string formatted properly? Can I optimize this?” etc. To me it’s hardly “solving the easy parts,” but rather putting the passenger’s hands on the wheel.
- gotostatement 5y ago
  Upvoted. I think the only good use case for this is spitting out 10-line, annoying, commonly used API boilerplate for commonly used APIs
  - izgzhen 5y ago
    That is a valid use case despite being small and incremental. I think it will still be helpful to some people.
- izgzhen 5y ago
  The easy part is the copy-paste-from-SO part ;)
naikrovek 5y ago
if it doesn't claim to help any code production bottlenecks, then what good is it? it's just piping in code that may or may not contain a subtle bug or three. That doesn't help anyone!! I am usually pretty pro-Microsoft, but this tool is a security nightmare and a bad idea all around. It will cause many (most? all?) who use it far more work than it saves them, long-term.