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> Those protests limited the scope of the war and their governments' involvement. Imagine the world if nobody protested, the free hand governments would have ha

> Those protests limited the scope of the war and their governments' involvement. Imagine the world if nobody protested, the free hand governments would have had if nobody cared. > The Iraq War was conducted while constantly pushing back against world opinion. The cost in political capital was high; those protests imposed real costs and real limitations on the leaders. That's how democracy works Did they change the scope of the war? I reckon they just did what the wanted regardless. Something like a million dead in Iraq (never mind Afghanistan), many times more wounded or maimed, vile treatment of POWs by US military, absolute evil undertaken by the CIA at Black sites, and of course, the enrichment of many a rich pocket. What real loss in "political capital" was there for fabricating evidence and using it for justification for invading Iraq? What meaningful consequences were there for any of it? > I can tell you that in my community, the George Floyd protests put political leaders in a position to respond immediately or be swept away by the next vote. I admire your optimism, but the impression I get from my US friends and colleagues paints a different picture. The media seldom even covering peaceful protests, hazing of civilian populations with helicopters and patrol cars, and several months of increased police brutality (because how else would they respond to protests about police brutality?!), with insane quantities of tear gas being used, numerous people beaten, tasered and shot with rubber bullets, several people losing eyes etc. Video after video, image after image of police brutality and negligence. Police departments blatantly fabricating evidence. And of course, more killing of black men and women under the most dubious of circumstances. Some of my friends have been involved in protests, and one was badly beaten and hospitised by a violent police officer - the whole thing was caught on film, yet the police charged him! Nothing meaningful has changed as a result of all these protests. It likely won't any time soon unless something more radical happens. > Whenever you think protests are futile, imagine the world without them. Then get out there and contribute - the world doesn't need people sitting on the sidelines, criticizing. I've done my bit, protesting on the street about things I care about. It felt good to feel like I was doing something, but eventually I came to the conclusion that I was deluding myself. None of our actions made any difference - and certainly where foreign policy, the military and war are concerned, the government are going to do whatever the hell they want regardless. I've caved and given in, for sure; emotionally, I have nothing left to give. But I'm not criticising those who do still get out there - if you feel like it makes a difference, or even if it just makes you feel good, then more power to you.

wolverine876 5y ago
I'm not sure why people are telling you these things, but that ain't what's happening. > The media seldom even covering peaceful protests George Floyd protests, including peaceful ones, dominated the news for the summer. > hazing of civilian populations with helicopters and patrol cars, and several months of increased police brutality There were problems, but I'm not being an 'optimist'. The great majority of protests were peaceful and uneventful. The only helicopter incident I remember was in DC. > Nothing meaningful has changed as a result of all these protests You should turn on the news, because it's good! Police reform laws have been passed and candidates have been elected nationwide; every Democratic candidate embraces them now, it's a necessity, and candidates who are far more progressive on these issues win; for example, look at the new mayor of Buffalo or at all the DAs elected and re-elected in major cities. Even Republicans in the Congress have voted for removing Confederate names from military bases, etc. Everyone remarked how the Thin Blue Line was finally broken, publicly and dramatically, in the Derek Chauvin trial. Much more needs to be done, but it's just a reactionary fantasy to say nothing has changed. > Video after video, image after image of police brutality and negligence. Police departments blatantly fabricating evidence. And of course, more killing of black men and women under the most dubious of circumstances. Right, this is what people were protesting. It's not going to change overnight. > None of our actions made any difference - and certainly where foreign policy, the military and war are concerned ... You're just saying that, with no support. For the other claims of futility, where we do have clear evidence, they were clearly false. Maybe the same is true here. I think the important question is: Why is it trendy on the Internet to claim democracy is so ineffective, when the reality is manifestly so much better? What do people gain from deceiving themselves? Who gains?
- GordonS 5y ago
  > The only helicopter incident I remember was in DC Residents of Minneapolis would beg to differ. > Right, this is what people were protesting. It's not going to change overnight. They were brutalising protesters for protesting about police brutality. Never mind changing overnight, this behaviour just beggars belief, and shows just how ingrained the problem is. > You should turn on the news, because it's good! What I've seen is some kind of attempt at the bare minimum (i.e. banning choke holds, which I think were already banned, and ending qualified immunity) - and IIRC, not a single Republican voted in favour, which demonstrates how polarised things are. AFAIK, nothing has actually changed yet - I'd love for meaningful changes to actually come, and hope that they do. But police unions are very powerful, and police brutality is institutionalised, so it's hard to be optimistic. > just a reactionary fantasy to say nothing has changed. > I think the important question is: Why is it trendy on the Internet to claim democracy is so ineffective, when the reality is manifestly so much better? I deeply resent the insinuation that I'm somehow happy that nothing has changed, or/and that my stance isn't genuine; it's got nothing to do with being "trendy". Rather, you and I simply see things very differently.

wolverine876 5y ago

I'm not sure why people are telling you these things, but that ain't what's happening. > The media seldom even covering peaceful protests George Floyd protests, including peaceful ones, dominated the news for the summer. > hazing of civilian populations with helicopters and patrol cars, and several months of increased police brutality There were problems, but I'm not being an 'optimist'. The great majority of protests were peaceful and uneventful. The only helicopter incident I remember was in DC. > Nothing meaningful has changed as a result of all these protests You should turn on the news, because it's good! Police reform laws have been passed and candidates have been elected nationwide; every Democratic candidate embraces them now, it's a necessity, and candidates who are far more progressive on these issues win; for example, look at the new mayor of Buffalo or at all the DAs elected and re-elected in major cities. Even Republicans in the Congress have voted for removing Confederate names from military bases, etc. Everyone remarked how the Thin Blue Line was finally broken, publicly and dramatically, in the Derek Chauvin trial. Much more needs to be done, but it's just a reactionary fantasy to say nothing has changed. > Video after video, image after image of police brutality and negligence. Police departments blatantly fabricating evidence. And of course, more killing of black men and women under the most dubious of circumstances. Right, this is what people were protesting. It's not going to change overnight. > None of our actions made any difference - and certainly where foreign policy, the military and war are concerned ... You're just saying that, with no support. For the other claims of futility, where we do have clear evidence, they were clearly false. Maybe the same is true here. I think the important question is: Why is it trendy on the Internet to claim democracy is so ineffective, when the reality is manifestly so much better? What do people gain from deceiving themselves? Who gains?

GordonS 5y ago
> The only helicopter incident I remember was in DC Residents of Minneapolis would beg to differ. > Right, this is what people were protesting. It's not going to change overnight. They were brutalising protesters for protesting about police brutality. Never mind changing overnight, this behaviour just beggars belief, and shows just how ingrained the problem is. > You should turn on the news, because it's good! What I've seen is some kind of attempt at the bare minimum (i.e. banning choke holds, which I think were already banned, and ending qualified immunity) - and IIRC, not a single Republican voted in favour, which demonstrates how polarised things are. AFAIK, nothing has actually changed yet - I'd love for meaningful changes to actually come, and hope that they do. But police unions are very powerful, and police brutality is institutionalised, so it's hard to be optimistic. > just a reactionary fantasy to say nothing has changed. > I think the important question is: Why is it trendy on the Internet to claim democracy is so ineffective, when the reality is manifestly so much better? I deeply resent the insinuation that I'm somehow happy that nothing has changed, or/and that my stance isn't genuine; it's got nothing to do with being "trendy". Rather, you and I simply see things very differently.