6 ms·

For sure. The IRS needs to offer a tax preparation platform, the grift in this industry is astounding. I've always had decent experiences with TurboTax, but the

by cmckn 5y ago

For sure. The IRS needs to offer a tax preparation platform, the grift in this industry is astounding. I've always had decent experiences with TurboTax, but they've gotten extremely good at making your taxes hell if you want to avoid giving them $89.99.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-fight-to-stop-americans-from-filing-their-taxes-for-free https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f... https://www.propublica.org/series/the-turbotax-trap https://www.propublica.org/series/the-turbotax-trap “ProPublica has long detailed how Intuit, the maker of TurboTax, and other companies have worked against making tax preparation easier and less costly. They have lobbied to ban the IRS from offering free, simple tax filing. And they have deceived customers who should qualify for the Free File product.”
- KorematsuFred 5y ago
  I find this criticism somewhat weird. It is very common for companies or even individuals to promote and support policies that benefit themselves. Intuit is seeking self interest here. But why would IRS and our elected representatives cave in ? Are these people so clueless or unethical that they do not care about their constituents anymore ? And if that is the case I don't see how anyone can bell the intuit's cat.
  - WisNorCan 5y ago
    It is a simple bargain. US representatives are dependent on fundraising and endorsements for re-election which lobbyists are happy to offer in exchange for help with their agenda.
  - commandlinefan 5y ago
    > why would IRS and our elected representatives cave in? money.
    - not2b 5y ago
      The IRS has almost no say in this (because they've been denied funding to fix it); it is entirely Congress's doing.
  - jfengel 5y ago
    They're capitalizing on a generalized anti-government and anti-IRS sentiment. It's not difficult for them to convince representatives that the IRS would do it badly, and it should be left up to the free market. They made, and basically broke, an agreement with the IRS. But it's really not easy for a government agency to say, "No, you broke the roles, so our agreement is void". It would basically take a lawsuit, which would be ugly, expensive, and time-consuming. It's not so much a matter of simply "caving", as that Intuit has gotten itself entrenched and it's difficult to dig them out. In theory it's not impossible, but it would require a ton of work, time, and will. Such things are very hard to come by, especially when you're the IRS and everybody already is predisposed to hate you.
  - burkaman 5y ago
    You accept that Intuit is lobbying for unethical policies in order to enrich themselves, but you don't understand why anyone would criticize that?
    - actually_a_dog 5y ago
      Generously interpreted, I think they are questioning why we're criticizing Intuit for doing it when we don't necessarily criticize other companies for it.
  - caslon 5y ago
    By your logic, here, an independent actor doing something to terminate the employees and stakeholders of Intuit would be completely blameless, if not celebrated by the people of the United States. It's not even a slippery slope to imply that acting in self-interest is always excusable: By the time you've gotten to that point, you're already at the bottom of any and every slippery slope. There are lines that we as a species have collectively are inexcusable to cross in self-interest, and without them life gets a lot worse for nearly everyone.
  - gremlinsinc 5y ago
    Hypothetical: I make kerosene.... we made a bad batch that doesn't burn just right and could hinder products it's used in... We're located in California. We've paid politicians to look the other way while we drop it over forests, in fire zones. It's a lot easier than getting rid of it other ways. We're enriching ourselves which is the American way, so there's definitely no problem with this, even though it may make fire season a major bitch for some people, luckily all our CEO's have homes in safer areas that won't be affected.... ^ Are you saying you'd say to the above scenario: I have no problems with this. If the answer to the above question is you would say that... What's it like to be devoid of morality? Is there anything resembling a conscious at all?
  - dboreham 5y ago
    Yes.
jandrese 5y ago
This year we tried doing our taxes using both TurboTax and FreeTaxUSA. TurboTax has a much worse interface, it took almost twice as long to complete the taxes despite having an identical return. TurboTax did find about $50 more return for us somehow despite having entered the same information into both sites, but that amount is less than the fee TurboTax would charge so we ended up submitting through FreeTaxUSA instead. Next year I don't think I'm even going to bother with TurboTax.
- jbluepolarbear 5y ago
  I got totally screwed last year job wise. 2 of my employers have not reported my tax contributions to the state. I never received a W2 from one of them. TurboTax was able to find all my W2 from the HR companies, but I was unable to access those HR websites for my W2s. Because my contributions weren’t reported to the state I have to get all my W2 (luckily it was in my federal return) and resend them to the state. I hate TurboTax, but I wouldn’t have been able to file my taxes this year without them.
  - missblit 5y ago
    You would have been able to but it'd be a bit painful: https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc154 https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc154 The basic process is to: 1. Contact your employer and have them send you a W2 2. If your employer does not send you your W2 by the end of February, contact the IRS and they'll send you a Form 4852 3. If you still haven't received a W2 in time to file taxes, then you can file using the Form 4852 instead 4. If you receive the W2 after filing and the actual numbers differ from your estimates, then you have to file an amended return.
    - jbluepolarbear 5y ago
      I’m not doing that under any circumstances. I’d rather get audited
      - mistersquid 5y ago
spinax 5y ago
H&R Block wanted to upcharge me additional $$ just to fill out a Schedule D on top of the $$ tier fee (the past few years these forms were included in that tier price). They lost a long term (10yr?) customer by trying to grift me this year. I used https://www.taxslayer.com/ https://www.taxslayer.com/ instead this past year, a bit more DIY but if you've done your taxes for years and they're generally the same year after year it's not that hard to read your docs and type them in the boxes. You pay for Support level, not tax form access with this service.
- dole 5y ago
  I'll second TaxSlayer (2nd year) after being a online TurboTax user for 12+ years, desktop app user years before that, and afraid and skeptical of jumping ship and losing "history", tired of the fake delays and dialogs. Relatively stripped down UI/UX and few "waiting" dialogs and I have to assume a good savings of clicks vs. TT. I have a relatively easy joint return with little audit risk and basically in the "generally the same year after year" boat as well.
acomjean 5y ago
the IRS has actually partnered with the "Free File Alliance" which is a group of companies that partner with the IRS (Free tax filing for incomes < X).. So Saddly I feel the hope of the IRS just sending you a bill is slim. Intuit is one of the members: https://freefilealliance.org/free-file-alliance-members/ https://freefilealliance.org/free-file-alliance-members/ https://freefilealliance.org/about/ https://freefilealliance.org/about/ Its a little weird. One would hope they would just send you the bill.. I filed my taxes late with an extension. I could go to the IRS site and get all the documents they had filed by banks and my employeer, for me. They have that info...
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  This is literally because Intuit lobbied to ban the IRS from being able to do it for you.
  - Cederfjard 5y ago
    This is so bizarre looking in from the outside. I’ve spent my working life in two European countries, one where if you’re just a regular employee and not doing anything special you just approve and submit your prefilled tax return, and one where you under the same circumstances literally have do to nothing.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > I could go to the IRS site and get all the documents they had filed by banks and my employeer, for me. They have that info... As Robotbeat says, this is literally because Intuit lobbied to ban the IRS from being able to do it for you -- which is also literally what TFA is all about. YTF do people comment on stuff they obviously haven't even read?!?
- Izkata 5y ago
  > (Free tax filing for incomes < X) It's free period. There is a threshold, but cost isn't what changes. Here's the entrypoint: https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-for-free https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-f... * <= 72k provides a wizard and includes state taxes. * > 72k requires you fill out virtual versions of the paper forms (with some limited automation) and doesn't include state taxes, but it's still free.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
briandear 5y ago
Why not ask the question why taxes are so complicated? Ted Cruz advocated for post card tax filing but everyone hated it because it would have eliminated the winners-and-losers picking that the tax code gives politicians. According to Ted Cruz, 9 billion hours is spent on tax compliance each year. Milton Friedman has a lot to say on the intentional complication of the tax code: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TruCIPy79w8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TruCIPy79w8 Tax rates should be low, deductions minimal, and compliance easy. The Laffer Curve demonstrates this value to government revenues. But the economic literacy of most people is so lacking that it always revolves into some kind of class-warfare debate. Tangential, but related would be the UBI debate vs. welfare program. Whatever side of the aisle you’re in when it comes to spending priorities, one thing that should be obvious is that simplification is a win for everyone except those with robust lobbying resources to fight for carve-outs. We could spend more money with simpler, lower taxes that are applied evenly. Have a high standard deduction to protect the very poor and for every dollar over that, the government gets 10%. Simple. But the compliance industry would lose their minds. This “progressive” tax system we have is ridiculous because it isn’t progressive at all — those making money from capital gains pay less than wage-earners. Everyone should pay the same percentage regardless of the origin of funds.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Ted Cruz advocated for post card tax filing but everyone hated it because it would have eliminated the winners-and-losers picking that the tax code gives politicians. No, it wouldn't. Like every tax proposal, it was winners-and-losers picking, not an elimination of it. People opposed it because they didn’t like the winners and losers Cruz picked.
- tialaramex 5y ago
  > The Laffer Curve demonstrates this value to government revenues. No. The Laffer Curve says that if humans were rational - which they aren't - and if tax enforcement is 100% effective - which it isn't - then the expected revenue is zero at both 0% taxation and 100% taxation. That's all it says. Every other point on the "curve" is arbitrary, and in practice Laffer uses this worthless conjecture about a hypothetical world that doesn't exist to justify cutting taxes on the rich, saying it will result in higher revenues. It doesn't of course, but as someone who benefits why should he care?
MattSayar 5y ago
This year is the first year I've worked at a company that has stocks, ESPP plans, etc. and I'm curious what's the most effective way to file my taxes by myself if I don't use TurboTax? I've read that Credit Karma Tax (which looks like it got sold again to Cash app?) doesn't do a good job covering these scenarios.
- anonAndOn 5y ago
  Probably to pay an accountant to do it right the first time, then just adjust what they did going forward, ceteris paribus.
baby 5y ago
What about collecting taxes at every paycheck instead of having me do it?

by cmckn 5y ago

toomuchtodo 5y ago

https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-fight-to-stop-americans-from-filing-their-taxes-for-free https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f... https://www.propublica.org/series/the-turbotax-trap https://www.propublica.org/series/the-turbotax-trap “ProPublica has long detailed how Intuit, the maker of TurboTax, and other companies have worked against making tax preparation easier and less costly. They have lobbied to ban the IRS from offering free, simple tax filing. And they have deceived customers who should qualify for the Free File product.”

KorematsuFred 5y ago
I find this criticism somewhat weird. It is very common for companies or even individuals to promote and support policies that benefit themselves. Intuit is seeking self interest here. But why would IRS and our elected representatives cave in ? Are these people so clueless or unethical that they do not care about their constituents anymore ? And if that is the case I don't see how anyone can bell the intuit's cat.
- WisNorCan 5y ago
  It is a simple bargain. US representatives are dependent on fundraising and endorsements for re-election which lobbyists are happy to offer in exchange for help with their agenda.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  > why would IRS and our elected representatives cave in? money.
  - not2b 5y ago
    The IRS has almost no say in this (because they've been denied funding to fix it); it is entirely Congress's doing.
- jfengel 5y ago
  They're capitalizing on a generalized anti-government and anti-IRS sentiment. It's not difficult for them to convince representatives that the IRS would do it badly, and it should be left up to the free market. They made, and basically broke, an agreement with the IRS. But it's really not easy for a government agency to say, "No, you broke the roles, so our agreement is void". It would basically take a lawsuit, which would be ugly, expensive, and time-consuming. It's not so much a matter of simply "caving", as that Intuit has gotten itself entrenched and it's difficult to dig them out. In theory it's not impossible, but it would require a ton of work, time, and will. Such things are very hard to come by, especially when you're the IRS and everybody already is predisposed to hate you.
- burkaman 5y ago
  You accept that Intuit is lobbying for unethical policies in order to enrich themselves, but you don't understand why anyone would criticize that?
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    Generously interpreted, I think they are questioning why we're criticizing Intuit for doing it when we don't necessarily criticize other companies for it.
- caslon 5y ago
  By your logic, here, an independent actor doing something to terminate the employees and stakeholders of Intuit would be completely blameless, if not celebrated by the people of the United States. It's not even a slippery slope to imply that acting in self-interest is always excusable: By the time you've gotten to that point, you're already at the bottom of any and every slippery slope. There are lines that we as a species have collectively are inexcusable to cross in self-interest, and without them life gets a lot worse for nearly everyone.
- gremlinsinc 5y ago
  Hypothetical: I make kerosene.... we made a bad batch that doesn't burn just right and could hinder products it's used in... We're located in California. We've paid politicians to look the other way while we drop it over forests, in fire zones. It's a lot easier than getting rid of it other ways. We're enriching ourselves which is the American way, so there's definitely no problem with this, even though it may make fire season a major bitch for some people, luckily all our CEO's have homes in safer areas that won't be affected.... ^ Are you saying you'd say to the above scenario: I have no problems with this. If the answer to the above question is you would say that... What's it like to be devoid of morality? Is there anything resembling a conscious at all?
- dboreham 5y ago
  Yes.

jandrese 5y ago

This year we tried doing our taxes using both TurboTax and FreeTaxUSA. TurboTax has a much worse interface, it took almost twice as long to complete the taxes despite having an identical return. TurboTax did find about $50 more return for us somehow despite having entered the same information into both sites, but that amount is less than the fee TurboTax would charge so we ended up submitting through FreeTaxUSA instead. Next year I don't think I'm even going to bother with TurboTax.

jbluepolarbear 5y ago
I got totally screwed last year job wise. 2 of my employers have not reported my tax contributions to the state. I never received a W2 from one of them. TurboTax was able to find all my W2 from the HR companies, but I was unable to access those HR websites for my W2s. Because my contributions weren’t reported to the state I have to get all my W2 (luckily it was in my federal return) and resend them to the state. I hate TurboTax, but I wouldn’t have been able to file my taxes this year without them.
- missblit 5y ago
  You would have been able to but it'd be a bit painful: https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc154 https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc154 The basic process is to: 1. Contact your employer and have them send you a W2 2. If your employer does not send you your W2 by the end of February, contact the IRS and they'll send you a Form 4852 3. If you still haven't received a W2 in time to file taxes, then you can file using the Form 4852 instead 4. If you receive the W2 after filing and the actual numbers differ from your estimates, then you have to file an amended return.
  - jbluepolarbear 5y ago
    I’m not doing that under any circumstances. I’d rather get audited
    - mistersquid 5y ago

spinax 5y ago

H&R Block wanted to upcharge me additional $$ just to fill out a Schedule D on top of the $$ tier fee (the past few years these forms were included in that tier price). They lost a long term (10yr?) customer by trying to grift me this year. I used https://www.taxslayer.com/ https://www.taxslayer.com/ instead this past year, a bit more DIY but if you've done your taxes for years and they're generally the same year after year it's not that hard to read your docs and type them in the boxes. You pay for Support level, not tax form access with this service.

dole 5y ago
I'll second TaxSlayer (2nd year) after being a online TurboTax user for 12+ years, desktop app user years before that, and afraid and skeptical of jumping ship and losing "history", tired of the fake delays and dialogs. Relatively stripped down UI/UX and few "waiting" dialogs and I have to assume a good savings of clicks vs. TT. I have a relatively easy joint return with little audit risk and basically in the "generally the same year after year" boat as well.

acomjean 5y ago

the IRS has actually partnered with the "Free File Alliance" which is a group of companies that partner with the IRS (Free tax filing for incomes < X).. So Saddly I feel the hope of the IRS just sending you a bill is slim. Intuit is one of the members: https://freefilealliance.org/free-file-alliance-members/ https://freefilealliance.org/free-file-alliance-members/ https://freefilealliance.org/about/ https://freefilealliance.org/about/ Its a little weird. One would hope they would just send you the bill.. I filed my taxes late with an extension. I could go to the IRS site and get all the documents they had filed by banks and my employeer, for me. They have that info...

Robotbeat 5y ago
This is literally because Intuit lobbied to ban the IRS from being able to do it for you.
- Cederfjard 5y ago
  This is so bizarre looking in from the outside. I’ve spent my working life in two European countries, one where if you’re just a regular employee and not doing anything special you just approve and submit your prefilled tax return, and one where you under the same circumstances literally have do to nothing.
CRConrad 5y ago
> I could go to the IRS site and get all the documents they had filed by banks and my employeer, for me. They have that info... As Robotbeat says, this is literally because Intuit lobbied to ban the IRS from being able to do it for you -- which is also literally what TFA is all about. YTF do people comment on stuff they obviously haven't even read?!?
Izkata 5y ago
> (Free tax filing for incomes < X) It's free period. There is a threshold, but cost isn't what changes. Here's the entrypoint: https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-for-free https://www.irs.gov/filing/free-file-do-your-federal-taxes-f... * <= 72k provides a wizard and includes state taxes. * > 72k requires you fill out virtual versions of the paper forms (with some limited automation) and doesn't include state taxes, but it's still free.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

briandear 5y ago

Why not ask the question why taxes are so complicated? Ted Cruz advocated for post card tax filing but everyone hated it because it would have eliminated the winners-and-losers picking that the tax code gives politicians. According to Ted Cruz, 9 billion hours is spent on tax compliance each year. Milton Friedman has a lot to say on the intentional complication of the tax code: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TruCIPy79w8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TruCIPy79w8 Tax rates should be low, deductions minimal, and compliance easy. The Laffer Curve demonstrates this value to government revenues. But the economic literacy of most people is so lacking that it always revolves into some kind of class-warfare debate. Tangential, but related would be the UBI debate vs. welfare program. Whatever side of the aisle you’re in when it comes to spending priorities, one thing that should be obvious is that simplification is a win for everyone except those with robust lobbying resources to fight for carve-outs. We could spend more money with simpler, lower taxes that are applied evenly. Have a high standard deduction to protect the very poor and for every dollar over that, the government gets 10%. Simple. But the compliance industry would lose their minds. This “progressive” tax system we have is ridiculous because it isn’t progressive at all — those making money from capital gains pay less than wage-earners. Everyone should pay the same percentage regardless of the origin of funds.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Ted Cruz advocated for post card tax filing but everyone hated it because it would have eliminated the winners-and-losers picking that the tax code gives politicians. No, it wouldn't. Like every tax proposal, it was winners-and-losers picking, not an elimination of it. People opposed it because they didn’t like the winners and losers Cruz picked.
tialaramex 5y ago
> The Laffer Curve demonstrates this value to government revenues. No. The Laffer Curve says that if humans were rational - which they aren't - and if tax enforcement is 100% effective - which it isn't - then the expected revenue is zero at both 0% taxation and 100% taxation. That's all it says. Every other point on the "curve" is arbitrary, and in practice Laffer uses this worthless conjecture about a hypothetical world that doesn't exist to justify cutting taxes on the rich, saying it will result in higher revenues. It doesn't of course, but as someone who benefits why should he care?

MattSayar 5y ago

This year is the first year I've worked at a company that has stocks, ESPP plans, etc. and I'm curious what's the most effective way to file my taxes by myself if I don't use TurboTax? I've read that Credit Karma Tax (which looks like it got sold again to Cash app?) doesn't do a good job covering these scenarios.

anonAndOn 5y ago
Probably to pay an accountant to do it right the first time, then just adjust what they did going forward, ceteris paribus.

baby 5y ago

What about collecting taxes at every paycheck instead of having me do it?