4 ms·

It's a shame that a small-time reseller like Cliff has to go to the trouble and expense to register a trademark to protect his listing (which I doubt Cliff will

It's a shame that a small-time reseller like Cliff has to go to the trouble and expense to register a trademark to protect his listing (which I doubt Cliff will bother with). Until about 5-6 years ago the changes Amazon made almost universally made their service better and more pro-user convenience/efficiency. Since then it's really become a nightmare. I realize they are being abused by scammers who are scheming every way to subvert the system but as a technologist familiar with web tech and distribution, it's clear there are some anti-consumer experience issues which Amazon could fix but is choosing not to. For example, allowing vendors to list alternate "versions" which aren't really the same product at all. It makes it harder to tell what the star rating averages are for the version I actually want (and I have to sort reviews by version which is only accessible on a subpage. Frankly, I'd rather they just go back to one listing per product. Yes it's less useful for a hundred different sized machine screws but it seems like a major source of these issues. Then there's the nightmare of letting different sellers sell on the "same" product listing. Crap clone products flit in and out contaminating the integrity of reviews because a shoddy version slips in but only from one seller out of six or seven. As someone who deals with them everyday, do you think they are NOT doing some of the things they could to stop these issues due to strong incentives (Amazon makes more $$$ allowing users to be frustrated), or do you think they are sincerely doing what they can (within reasonable costs) to solve these chronic issues? They used to understand that accuracy and transparency ultimately yield more sales (even if lower for an individual product). I'd like to believe Amazon didn't change their ethos from the early days, but...

paulpauper 5y ago
Making the step from a hobby to a business means having to make the necessary investments, some of which may be costly and a pain in the ass, to protect one's intellectual property.
- saxonww 5y ago
  I think it's ironic that you're saying he has to pay to run his business safely, when Amazon's set things up this way specifically because they don't want to pay to run their business safely. It's a little outrageous that a 3rd party can come take over your storefront without any avenue to challenge.
  - gowld 5y ago
    There is nothing wrong with Cliff's store front: https://www.kleinbottle.com https://www.kleinbottle.com The problem is in Amazon's storefront, and there millions of sellers are operating in the same space, so doing some due diligence is required. If Cliff could just seize ownership of his storefront from a thief, why couldn't a thief seize it from Cliff? The solution is to register a proper trademark. Like it or not, the world is messy, and it costs to keep it clean. Registering a trademark is like buying locks for your home and vehicle, and buying soap to wash your clothes, and changing the oils in your machines.
    - whelming_wave 5y ago
      It's interesting that you say "some due diligence is required" and go on to put the burden of that diligence on Cliff, rather than the creator of the marketplace.
      - threwawasy1228 5y ago
        It should be pointed out that in a country like India or China it IS often the marketplaces legal responsibility to prevent counterfeit merchandise from being sold in their market. If you go into many malls for example there are signs up on the walls with a hotline to report people selling counterfeit merchandise. In India, they have a service you can contact that enforces returns/refunds of any counterfeit item that you purchase from a vendor (though usually mentioning the hotline and threatening to call it is more than enough to convince the vendor to give you a refund).
    - worik 5y ago
      The solution is for Amazon to be less horrid. There really are no polite words to describe business practices. Stop buying from Amazon. Quite easy actually.
      - beprogrammed 5y ago
        Exactly, stop buying from Amazon. There a software company running a software market, all the power is in there hands, and they choose to do nothing.
- speeder 5y ago
  Except selling Klein bottles is a hobby, his actual business is teaching.
  - CliffStoll 5y ago
    Oh yes, Speeder. Thank you! -Cliff
- fncypants 5y ago
  I'm not sure why the parent was downvoted. The trademark scheme was built to make marketplaces more efficient, by giving producers a carve out in the conversation--a word or phrase or logo--so that they and consumers and distributors can engage together confidently with some bright line rules to work with. The alternative is anarchy, and much more expensive then filing for a trademark if you want to sell in the marketplace. Like insurance, everyone that wants to be in the market pays a little, so that it makes it easier to avoid something like this.
iratewizard 5y ago
Amazon is filled to the brim with predominantly Chinese scammers that they have shown no interest in stopping. Scams I've seen: - 2 pack scammers that sell someone else's product as a bundle, but it costs more to buy the 2 pack than it does to buy the real item twice. - Listing swaps, where someone will take a commodity listing with lots of reviews and change the listing to sell overpriced broken garbage - Counterfeiting or extreme product cheapening after a listing receives recommended status - A mountain of fake review schemes now including this. These bad actors don't contribute to the Amazon market. There's little reason not to ban them for ToS violations.
- wpietri 5y ago
  Sure, that sounds good, banning scammers. But then important metrics would not go up and to the right. Metrics executives see! You can't just run around prioritizing the customer experience willy-nilly. Who knows what that would lead to?!? /s
- ManBlanket 5y ago
  Funny you mention the 2-pack scammers. I was literally just looking for a center-post mounted bike seat for a child yesterday and noticed that exact scam. I thought to myself, "why would someone want a two pack of these bike seats?" Lo and behold the actual product cost less than half as much as the two pack. I didn't realize what was going on, just thought, "this doesn't seem legit" and bought a totally different item. Poor bike-seat manufacturer.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  > These bad actors don't contribute to the Amazon market. There's little reason not to ban them for ToS violations. These bad actors are optimizing for sales, and Amazon benefits from each sale on their marketplace. Their actions result in more money for the bad actors and for Amazon alike. It's a similar situation to VC-funded social media platforms turning a blind eye to bots and automation early on because bot activity increases growth and engagement metrics, both of which in turn can increase the platform's valuation in future funding rounds or an IPO.
  - 5y ago
SomewhatLikely 5y ago
When you scroll tho y the end of the reviews they have a link that says something like show reviews from other countries. If the reviews for different versions worked this way it might cut down on some of the version scamming.

paulpauper 5y ago

Making the step from a hobby to a business means having to make the necessary investments, some of which may be costly and a pain in the ass, to protect one's intellectual property.

saxonww 5y ago
I think it's ironic that you're saying he has to pay to run his business safely, when Amazon's set things up this way specifically because they don't want to pay to run their business safely. It's a little outrageous that a 3rd party can come take over your storefront without any avenue to challenge.
- gowld 5y ago
  There is nothing wrong with Cliff's store front: https://www.kleinbottle.com https://www.kleinbottle.com The problem is in Amazon's storefront, and there millions of sellers are operating in the same space, so doing some due diligence is required. If Cliff could just seize ownership of his storefront from a thief, why couldn't a thief seize it from Cliff? The solution is to register a proper trademark. Like it or not, the world is messy, and it costs to keep it clean. Registering a trademark is like buying locks for your home and vehicle, and buying soap to wash your clothes, and changing the oils in your machines.
  - whelming_wave 5y ago
    It's interesting that you say "some due diligence is required" and go on to put the burden of that diligence on Cliff, rather than the creator of the marketplace.
    - threwawasy1228 5y ago
      It should be pointed out that in a country like India or China it IS often the marketplaces legal responsibility to prevent counterfeit merchandise from being sold in their market. If you go into many malls for example there are signs up on the walls with a hotline to report people selling counterfeit merchandise. In India, they have a service you can contact that enforces returns/refunds of any counterfeit item that you purchase from a vendor (though usually mentioning the hotline and threatening to call it is more than enough to convince the vendor to give you a refund).
  - worik 5y ago
    The solution is for Amazon to be less horrid. There really are no polite words to describe business practices. Stop buying from Amazon. Quite easy actually.
    - beprogrammed 5y ago
      Exactly, stop buying from Amazon. There a software company running a software market, all the power is in there hands, and they choose to do nothing.
speeder 5y ago
Except selling Klein bottles is a hobby, his actual business is teaching.
- CliffStoll 5y ago
  Oh yes, Speeder. Thank you! -Cliff
fncypants 5y ago
I'm not sure why the parent was downvoted. The trademark scheme was built to make marketplaces more efficient, by giving producers a carve out in the conversation--a word or phrase or logo--so that they and consumers and distributors can engage together confidently with some bright line rules to work with. The alternative is anarchy, and much more expensive then filing for a trademark if you want to sell in the marketplace. Like insurance, everyone that wants to be in the market pays a little, so that it makes it easier to avoid something like this.

iratewizard 5y ago

Amazon is filled to the brim with predominantly Chinese scammers that they have shown no interest in stopping. Scams I've seen: - 2 pack scammers that sell someone else's product as a bundle, but it costs more to buy the 2 pack than it does to buy the real item twice. - Listing swaps, where someone will take a commodity listing with lots of reviews and change the listing to sell overpriced broken garbage - Counterfeiting or extreme product cheapening after a listing receives recommended status - A mountain of fake review schemes now including this. These bad actors don't contribute to the Amazon market. There's little reason not to ban them for ToS violations.

wpietri 5y ago
Sure, that sounds good, banning scammers. But then important metrics would not go up and to the right. Metrics executives see! You can't just run around prioritizing the customer experience willy-nilly. Who knows what that would lead to?!? /s
ManBlanket 5y ago
Funny you mention the 2-pack scammers. I was literally just looking for a center-post mounted bike seat for a child yesterday and noticed that exact scam. I thought to myself, "why would someone want a two pack of these bike seats?" Lo and behold the actual product cost less than half as much as the two pack. I didn't realize what was going on, just thought, "this doesn't seem legit" and bought a totally different item. Poor bike-seat manufacturer.
heavyset_go 5y ago
> These bad actors don't contribute to the Amazon market. There's little reason not to ban them for ToS violations. These bad actors are optimizing for sales, and Amazon benefits from each sale on their marketplace. Their actions result in more money for the bad actors and for Amazon alike. It's a similar situation to VC-funded social media platforms turning a blind eye to bots and automation early on because bot activity increases growth and engagement metrics, both of which in turn can increase the platform's valuation in future funding rounds or an IPO.
- 5y ago

SomewhatLikely 5y ago

When you scroll tho y the end of the reviews they have a link that says something like show reviews from other countries. If the reviews for different versions worked this way it might cut down on some of the version scamming.