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It's not Western though. You're right in that it generally doesn't work, but it's well known to only work in specific circumstances. Yes it's part of a politica
by RobertKerans 5y ago
It's not Western though. You're right in that it generally doesn't work, but it's well known to only work in specific circumstances. Yes it's part of a political strategy, but the point of it is to demonstrate dignity, and given a state that is susceptible to shame, that greatly aids in the empowerment of blocs within the state to enact change.
In retrospect, yes, it's fallacious thinking from the protesters if they thought they could successfully press for change just via the protests. But that's in retrospect, previously it might have worked. But as you suggest, the Chinese state is in a position where it doesn't have to care and will happily exterminate the protests. Only answer then is violence, but in this situation the only actors capable of that are other states. In which case, peaceful protest, not fighting back seems the logically correct thing to do -- the protestors require the moral high ground and to focus attention on the issue, which they did very successfully. Whether that has much effect -- probably not, China is ridiculously powerful, but they couldn't do much more (I mean, taken to Gandhian logical extremes, recognition of the failure of the non-violent protest should have been followed mass suicide of all the protesters, which is grotesque but hey, that's Gandhi for you).
- derefr 5y agoThe logical extreme here, I would think, is mass organized emigration to other countries who have offered to willingly take in HK political refugees.
- RobertKerans 5y agoYes, that has direct precedent. And with the most obvious precedent, was the alternative taken when that group [surprisingly! /s] didn't do what Gandhi thought they should have done. Edit: but that isn't nonviolent protest, it's just leaving your home. It doesn't cause any political change, and it's not at all the logical extreme of nonviolent protest (the logical extreme is stupid, and seems only to have ever been carried out by millenarian cults, but hey ho).
- scohesc 5y agoI would assume China is monitoring all their Hong Kong citizens and carefully scrutinizing them for any dissident behaviour before they even think of letting them leave the country.
- wolverine876 5y agoI know the Chinese government has caught a few escaping by boat, and others have made it. It seems they are against even individual migration. I would love to give those people a home. People seeking freedom are the ones I want in my country, much more than the powerful people trying to seize more power for themselves.
- tablespoon 5y ago> In retrospect, yes, it's fallacious thinking from the protesters if they thought they could successfully press for change just via the protests. But that's in retrospect, previously it might have worked. Not exactly, it actually did work at least once. Protests in HK had been previously successful at stopping a national security law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_(Legislative_Provisions)_Bill_2003#July_1_demonstration_and_downfall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_(Legislative.... The official protest demands were actually pretty modest, and I think even the biggest one (a fully elected government) is actually called for in the Basic Law. > But as you suggest, the Chinese state is in a position where it doesn't have to care and will happily exterminate the protests. It's worth noting that one of the protest anthems was "Do You Hear the People Sing?" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_You_Hear_the_People_Sing%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_You_Hear_the_People_Sing%3F) from Les Misérables, which is (in part) about a crushed pro-Democracy movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_the_ABC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_the_ABC, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_Rebellion).