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> It’s already proven that women, minorities and others on the outside don’t apply when they don’t meet these qualifications. On the other hand, taking jobs th
by Zababa 5y ago
> It’s already proven that women, minorities and others on the outside don’t apply when they don’t meet these qualifications.
On the other hand, taking jobs that are a bit outside your comfort zone is how you grow. I agree that more realistic requirements would helps (especially if they're called "minimum"), but you also have to teach to people how to be ambitious.
- mannykannot 5y agoTelling people they have already failed is hardly likely to teach them to be ambitious.
- wizzwizz4 5y agoApplying for a job that I don't meet the minimum requirements for feels like somewhere between “fraud” and “stupidity”. They're literally called “minimum requirements”.
- pyrale 5y agoOn the other hand, it looks much better to call it "minimum requirements" than "fake reasons to refuse people we don't like".
- coliveira 5y agoExactly. When they create fake requirements the goal is exactly to weed out anyone they don't like. Because if they find someone of the "right" group they'll give the job anyway even if the requirements aren't met.
- a1369209993 5y agoWell, you're in good company, because describing them as "minimum requirements" when they clearly aren't also feels like somewhere between fraud and stupidity.
- pyrale 5y ago> jobs that are a bit outside your comfort zone There is usually little correlation between the job requirements and what you're actually going to do on the job.
- LeifCarrotson 5y ago> you also have to teach to people how to be ambitious. You need to train people to leave their ethics at the door and lie until they make it? They say these are "minimum requirements". You called them "qualifications". They're not suggested capabilities that you should have to feel comfortable in the job. They have a separate section for "Preferred Qualifications", so these aren't just preferences, they're requirements if you're not willing to break the rules. A certain subset of the population is willing to check the box that says "I meet these requirements" and then later push around the interviewer and say they don't actually meet them but that they ought to be considered anyways. This brash, often narcissistic, overconfident group is over-represented in management circles not because they're "more ambitious" than others but because they're willing to sacrifice their morals to cheat the system.
- pc86 5y agoIf you equate "be ambitious" with lying, that says more about you than it says about resumes or HR.
- ben_w 5y agoI’d agree with @LeifCarrotson on this. If an app says “minimum requirements: 8 GB RAM” any PC which reports that it meets the minimum requirements but actually has 4 GB RAM is making a false claim. Ambition is what you can become, not what you are. The only way of applying without dishonesty would be to do so while openly saying “I don’t tick all your boxes, but I still think I’d be a good fit because XYZ”. I might like this if I saw it in a job application, because it means the applicant was paying attention and not just applying to everything… but that doesn’t work so well when there’s already a “Preferred Qualifications” section, and might even have the opposite effect.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago> If an app says “minimum requirements: 8 GB RAM” any PC which reports that it meets the minimum requirements but actually has 4 GB RAM is making a false claim If a job says you need 8 years of experience and you say you have 8 when you have 4, that is lying. If you apply to a job that says you need 8 years of experience and you only have 4, that isn't lying. It isn't dishonest. It would be like the person selling that PC asking, "hey, might 4GB work if we throw in a better processor?"
- pessimizer 5y agoThat's why I keep applying for jobs as a structural engineer; eventually somebody will just assume I'm credentialed. I'll just figure it out on the job.
- InitialLastName 5y agoThe good news is that the credentials to be a structural engineer (PE) are substantially more concrete than those to be a software "engineer".
- _ah 5y ago:) I see what you did there.
- lostcolony 5y agoCall me when you need some surgery done! I've never been to med school or anything, but I both am really good with a knife in the kitchen, AND I've got an excellent track record following instructions on DIY Youtube videos.
- burnished 5y agoIf a trained surgeon is out of the question and my options are a daylight-fearing nephew and you, well, I'd pick you!
- lostcolony 5y agoIf you know those are your only options why are you putting out a job description asking for something that doesn't exist? If you didn't know ahead what your options were, and you were willing to accept someone who isn't an actual surgeon, maybe you would have preferred the person who whittles, has a biology degree, also is great with DIY videos, was a combat medic, AND isn't squeamish at the sight of blood, unlike me? Because she was turned off by the fact she didn't meet your listed minimum requirements; all you got applying are me and your nephew.
- burnished 5y agoThe only reason I can think of is as a smoke screen for hiring whatever candidate I feel most comfortable with, regardless of qualifications! If no one can live up to the standards then I no longer have to trust qualifications, everyone understands that I now must use my best judgement.
- HelloNurse 5y agoExcept that women and minorities tend to be easily discouraged, not "ambitious" and confident. Expecting candidates to push the boundaries of their qualifications is a bias in itself.
- nitrogen 5y agoExcept that women and minorities tend to be easily discouraged, not "ambitious" and confident. As someone from a rural background where the best case was usually HVAC repair and the not-too-uncommon case was addiction and stagnation, and who came into tech from far outside the normal path, this is the problem to fix, and tech company job requirements are way too late in the pipeline to exert much leverage there. This needs to be solved culturally, across years and generations.
- Thiez 5y ago> This needs to be solved culturally, across years and generations. That would be great, but if we can substantially reduce the impact of the difference in confidence by being honest about minimal job requirements right now, shouldn't we also do that?
- devmunchies 5y ago> Except that women and minorities tend to be easily discouraged This reverse-sexism/racism reads as if you believe on an ideological level that women and minorities have inferior character defects and need special accommodations.
- squeaky-clean 5y agoA "job outside my comfort zone" and "lying that I meet the minimum requirements" are entirely different things and it's a shame the business world tries to conflate the two.
- goodpoint 5y agoNo. People grow by being in positions that gives them the ability to learn. > you also have to teach to people how to be ambitious This is a jobspec, not a carrer coaching session. Filtering out people who feel self-conscious or experience impostor syndrome ends up disproportionally hurting minorities.