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Carmack does not have a Master’s Degree, as listed in the minimum requirements. Other than that, he seems to greatly exceed every other requirement. Everyone s

Carmack does not have a Master’s Degree, as listed in the minimum requirements. Other than that, he seems to greatly exceed every other requirement. Everyone should know that the requirements in job listings are almost always guidelines, not a strict checklist. Obviously someone with 3 years of programming experience won’t be considered for this job, but someone who has 11 years of experience instead of the 12 listed in the requirements section should apply. Rule of thumb: If you can reasonably say that you’re “close enough” to the listed requirements or you satisfy most but maybe not all of them, apply anyway. Let the company decide. Don’t waste your time applying to jobs you’re obviously not qualified for, but don’t prematurely reject yourself from jobs if you’re close enough. Hiring is hard. Finding candidates is hard. Contrary to some of the more cynical comments on HN, hiring managers aren’t interested in rejecting otherwise qualified candidates due to small technicalities. That’s what Carmack is trying to convey here.

exporectomy 5y ago
Then don't call it minimum because it's a lie. All these secret code-language gatekeeping tricks in industry are awful. I'm happy to see one of the replies calls it sex discrimination. If that's what it takes to stop employers lying on job ads, good on them.
- shadilay 5y ago
  It would be great if job ads were actually honest and gave a real minimum, maximum, and typical qualifications.
  - vsareto 5y ago
    They should really just list the responsibilities and let people apply. Minimums and/or requirements are often not correct per the word definitions, but maximum and typical qualifications are probably fraught with even more ambiguity.
    - shadilay 5y ago
      Responsibilities is not a bad idea. Really anything that isn't as dishonest as it is now.
  - aj3 5y ago
    Another cool idea is to list what are the proficiencies of existing team members.
  - ItsMonkk 5y ago
    One of the minimum requirements that I have in a company is that their HR department understands the definition of the word minimum.
- MaxBarraclough 5y ago
  > I'm happy to see one of the replies calls it sex discrimination. I'm not seeing this reply. In what sense is it discriminatory?
  - lisper 5y ago
    Because “advanced degree” is statistically a proxy for “white male”.
    - test_epsilon 5y ago
      That doesn't make it discriminatory.
    - motogpjimbo 5y ago
      So is "STEM degree". Perhaps we should stop recruiting anyone with a STEM background?
    - b9a2cab5 5y ago
      If you look at any graduate program in CS/Stats/Math today, you would think "PhD in CS" is a proxy for "Asian". Equality of opportunity doesn't result in equality of outcomes. Many of those Asian students have to climb countless immigration barriers and out-compete literally a billion people to come to the US. They arguably have _less_ opportunity than a white woman who's a US citizen. The idea that overstating requirements is somehow discriminatory is laughable. There is _nothing_ stopping women or whatever group is the oppressed group of the day from applying for a _job listing_. It's literally just submitting a resume, there's not even a big time investment associated with it. If there was discrimination in the resume screening that would be a different story, but you can't claim prima facie that having inflated job requirements is sexist.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - XelNika 5y ago
    I believe this is the reply in question: https://twitter.com/colinmbrandt/status/1409577979731058699 https://twitter.com/colinmbrandt/status/1409577979731058699 See for example: https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless-theyre-100-qualified https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless...
VonGallifrey 5y ago
> Carmack does not have a Master’s Degree, as listed in the minimum requirements. Other than that, he seems to greatly exceed every other requirement. In other words: Industry legend ALMOST makes minimum requirements. I know what you are saying, but it is absolutely crazy to me that they would post a job ad with Minimum Requirements even someone like Carmack doesn't have. Not to mention the "Preferred Requirements". Maybe they should make their Minimum Requirements more realistic or stop calling them minimum if they are not actually minimum requirements.
- patrakov 5y ago
  To add insult to the injury: he will probably not pass the Facebook coding interview. I tried (for a different position) and failed, due to a bullshit reason. It was a coding interview with two problems, 1-hour time limit, and an interviewer who watches how you enter code into their online editor without the possibility to run anything. The problems were not that hard, the real difficulty was due to the time limit. During my previous experience as a software developer I have acquired a habit to write an obviously-correct but non-optimized solution to every problem, to use as something to compare a better solution to, i.e. as a test factory. So, I had only enough time to solve the first problem correctly, and to implement a wasteful solution to the second one. In retrospect, implementing the "obviously correct" but wasteful solution would not have helped, because I could not compare the results anyway. In my opinion, the test selects for people who are lucky enough to discover and implement the non-obvious optimization correctly from the first attempt. Or, as I have discovered later, who have bought all books on programming interview preparation, because the problems were actually non-unique.
  - lostcolony 5y ago
    Yep. Leetcode style problems are effective filters only for people who grind leetcode. It's tailored for a very particular level of developer; someone who is smart enough to understand the problems and solutions (and retain them well enough to trot them out quickly), ambitious enough to put in that level of effort to work for a 'top tier' tech company, and sufficiently docile and willing to work on BS (outside of their working hours, typically, too) that they'll spend that kind of time just to try to make it into one. So someone who went out and built a SaaS business themselves, was moderately successful, and sold it? Not going to pass. Someone who spent three months grinding leetcode and doing little else? Probably going to pass. I'm guessing it's highly effective at selecting for the kind of candidates these companies want.
aroundtown 5y ago
> Everyone should know that the requirements in job listings are almost always guidelines In my experience job requirements are used to weed out and reject those that the hiring people don't like for reasons other than ability. This ranges from excluding women, being only inclusive of women, only hiring a certain races or religions, or justifying the use of work visas. I've even seen it used to justify not hiring someone because of their accent.
FartyMcFarter 5y ago
> Other than that, he seems to greatly exceed every other requirement. Even this one? "8+ years of experience in one or more of the following areas: machine learning, recommendation systems, pattern recognition, NLP, data mining, or artificial intelligence"
michaelt 5y ago
> Carmack does not have a Master’s Degree, as listed in the minimum requirements. Other than that, he seems to greatly exceed every other requirement. Carmack doesn't have 8+ years of experience in Machine Learning, he's only been working on AI full time for about 3 years. Carmack doesn't have substantial experience with "mobile graphics pipelines" or "graphics hardware and drivers on mobile platforms" - as Oculus, Quake and Doom were all PC-only. Carmack isn't a "Proven cross-functional partner, working across functions to drive solutions" because those are nonsense words that mean nothing.
- jobigoud 5y ago
  I agree with the others but not the middle one, at Oculus he worked exclusively on the mobile variants, the GearVR and in-house prototypes. His entire mission was dedicated to mobile graphics pipelines and graphics hardware & drivers.
ar_lan 5y ago
> Everyone should know that the requirements in job listings are almost always guidelines, not a strict checklist. I don't think the onus should be on the people who are applying. There are a lot of people who are rule-followers, literal-minded, etc., and a lot of people with mental disabilities that might not be able to see through this checklist - of these candidates, a lot of them are likely fantastic SWEs. Why penalize people who are thoughtful about your posting? This just incentivizes lying both ways - it tells me that the company doesn't even believe their own requirements, so I may as well just apply anyway, even if it ends up completely wasting their time.

exporectomy 5y ago

Then don't call it minimum because it's a lie. All these secret code-language gatekeeping tricks in industry are awful. I'm happy to see one of the replies calls it sex discrimination. If that's what it takes to stop employers lying on job ads, good on them.

shadilay 5y ago
It would be great if job ads were actually honest and gave a real minimum, maximum, and typical qualifications.
- vsareto 5y ago
  They should really just list the responsibilities and let people apply. Minimums and/or requirements are often not correct per the word definitions, but maximum and typical qualifications are probably fraught with even more ambiguity.
  - shadilay 5y ago
    Responsibilities is not a bad idea. Really anything that isn't as dishonest as it is now.
- aj3 5y ago
  Another cool idea is to list what are the proficiencies of existing team members.
- ItsMonkk 5y ago
  One of the minimum requirements that I have in a company is that their HR department understands the definition of the word minimum.
MaxBarraclough 5y ago
> I'm happy to see one of the replies calls it sex discrimination. I'm not seeing this reply. In what sense is it discriminatory?
- lisper 5y ago
  Because “advanced degree” is statistically a proxy for “white male”.
  - test_epsilon 5y ago
    That doesn't make it discriminatory.
  - motogpjimbo 5y ago
    So is "STEM degree". Perhaps we should stop recruiting anyone with a STEM background?
  - b9a2cab5 5y ago
    If you look at any graduate program in CS/Stats/Math today, you would think "PhD in CS" is a proxy for "Asian". Equality of opportunity doesn't result in equality of outcomes. Many of those Asian students have to climb countless immigration barriers and out-compete literally a billion people to come to the US. They arguably have _less_ opportunity than a white woman who's a US citizen. The idea that overstating requirements is somehow discriminatory is laughable. There is _nothing_ stopping women or whatever group is the oppressed group of the day from applying for a _job listing_. It's literally just submitting a resume, there's not even a big time investment associated with it. If there was discrimination in the resume screening that would be a different story, but you can't claim prima facie that having inflated job requirements is sexist.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- XelNika 5y ago
  I believe this is the reply in question: https://twitter.com/colinmbrandt/status/1409577979731058699 https://twitter.com/colinmbrandt/status/1409577979731058699 See for example: https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless-theyre-100-qualified https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-dont-apply-for-jobs-unless...

VonGallifrey 5y ago

> Carmack does not have a Master’s Degree, as listed in the minimum requirements. Other than that, he seems to greatly exceed every other requirement. In other words: Industry legend ALMOST makes minimum requirements. I know what you are saying, but it is absolutely crazy to me that they would post a job ad with Minimum Requirements even someone like Carmack doesn't have. Not to mention the "Preferred Requirements". Maybe they should make their Minimum Requirements more realistic or stop calling them minimum if they are not actually minimum requirements.

patrakov 5y ago
To add insult to the injury: he will probably not pass the Facebook coding interview. I tried (for a different position) and failed, due to a bullshit reason. It was a coding interview with two problems, 1-hour time limit, and an interviewer who watches how you enter code into their online editor without the possibility to run anything. The problems were not that hard, the real difficulty was due to the time limit. During my previous experience as a software developer I have acquired a habit to write an obviously-correct but non-optimized solution to every problem, to use as something to compare a better solution to, i.e. as a test factory. So, I had only enough time to solve the first problem correctly, and to implement a wasteful solution to the second one. In retrospect, implementing the "obviously correct" but wasteful solution would not have helped, because I could not compare the results anyway. In my opinion, the test selects for people who are lucky enough to discover and implement the non-obvious optimization correctly from the first attempt. Or, as I have discovered later, who have bought all books on programming interview preparation, because the problems were actually non-unique.
- lostcolony 5y ago
  Yep. Leetcode style problems are effective filters only for people who grind leetcode. It's tailored for a very particular level of developer; someone who is smart enough to understand the problems and solutions (and retain them well enough to trot them out quickly), ambitious enough to put in that level of effort to work for a 'top tier' tech company, and sufficiently docile and willing to work on BS (outside of their working hours, typically, too) that they'll spend that kind of time just to try to make it into one. So someone who went out and built a SaaS business themselves, was moderately successful, and sold it? Not going to pass. Someone who spent three months grinding leetcode and doing little else? Probably going to pass. I'm guessing it's highly effective at selecting for the kind of candidates these companies want.

aroundtown 5y ago

> Everyone should know that the requirements in job listings are almost always guidelines In my experience job requirements are used to weed out and reject those that the hiring people don't like for reasons other than ability. This ranges from excluding women, being only inclusive of women, only hiring a certain races or religions, or justifying the use of work visas. I've even seen it used to justify not hiring someone because of their accent.

FartyMcFarter 5y ago

> Other than that, he seems to greatly exceed every other requirement. Even this one? "8+ years of experience in one or more of the following areas: machine learning, recommendation systems, pattern recognition, NLP, data mining, or artificial intelligence"

michaelt 5y ago

> Carmack does not have a Master’s Degree, as listed in the minimum requirements. Other than that, he seems to greatly exceed every other requirement. Carmack doesn't have 8+ years of experience in Machine Learning, he's only been working on AI full time for about 3 years. Carmack doesn't have substantial experience with "mobile graphics pipelines" or "graphics hardware and drivers on mobile platforms" - as Oculus, Quake and Doom were all PC-only. Carmack isn't a "Proven cross-functional partner, working across functions to drive solutions" because those are nonsense words that mean nothing.

jobigoud 5y ago
I agree with the others but not the middle one, at Oculus he worked exclusively on the mobile variants, the GearVR and in-house prototypes. His entire mission was dedicated to mobile graphics pipelines and graphics hardware & drivers.

ar_lan 5y ago

> Everyone should know that the requirements in job listings are almost always guidelines, not a strict checklist. I don't think the onus should be on the people who are applying. There are a lot of people who are rule-followers, literal-minded, etc., and a lot of people with mental disabilities that might not be able to see through this checklist - of these candidates, a lot of them are likely fantastic SWEs. Why penalize people who are thoughtful about your posting? This just incentivizes lying both ways - it tells me that the company doesn't even believe their own requirements, so I may as well just apply anyway, even if it ends up completely wasting their time.