4 ms·

There's very little actual substance there to invalidate, and I did discuss some of issues. His analysis of women's creativity is wrong, and is his talk about r

There's very little actual substance there to invalidate, and I did discuss some of issues. His analysis of women's creativity is wrong, and is his talk about relative sex drives is spurious. I also think it's a huge mistake to label cultures who have persisted by making over half their population miserable (women and low-status men) as "successful". If you wanted me to take it apart line-by-line you will have to be disappointed.

scott_s 15y ago
If you object to the word "successful," then just replace it with something else. His meaning is the same as in evolutionary biology: it out-competes its peers and continues to exist. He does not mean to imply that its good or that the people who comprise the culture are happy. By analogy, I would claim that sharks are successful. By the standard above, they clearly are: they've continued to exist and out-competed peer species for millions of years. But I'm making an objective claim only, not a value judgement on whether or not this is good.
run4yourlives 15y ago
> over half their population miserable Do you have any data to support the assertion that everyone that isn't occupying a high-status leadership role within a society is "miserable"? You're personalizing the argument and then missing the point.
- sliverstorm 15y ago
  You don't need to prove a statement like that. It's common knowledge the only people who are not miserable in the world have a net worth over $1B. Money, after all, is the one and only ingredient to happiness.
nocipher 15y ago
The generalizations aren't interesting though because they provide no fodder, no argument. Even without picking apart an argument line-by-line, your conclusions should be supported. Your response actually raises interesting points, but then leaves them without any supporting logic. Why is his analysis of women's creativity wrong? Where is the fault in his logic? What is a better analysis? Why is his discussion on relative sex spurious? I'm left with a lot of unanswered questions. I do not expect everyone to be able to give a very detailed analysis of an argument, but if there are key arguments you disagree with, it is not too much work to sketch your logic so that others understand your point.
cefarix 15y ago
One of the problems in Western cultures is that being a CEO, a President, a rockstar, an astronaut, etc is more highly valued than say, being a mother. This is why many Western women feel that being a mother with young kids and staying at home is not fulfilling their lives - because the cultural messages tell them that being a stay-at-home mom is an unglamarous job. You will find that not all cultures are like this - in many Asian cultures for example, being a mother is a very honorable and glamorous thing to do. Women usually make up more than half of a society's population, something you agree with yourself. In that case, don't think it highly unlikely that societies in which women are miserable might not survive long? And yet the cultures in which you assume women are miserable have survived, endured, and even thrived, for millennia (I'm not talking about the 50s in America here). Imagine the consequences if women were truly miserable in these societies: What would happen to the next generation? What would be the consequences of having a mother, grandmother, and aunts, who are utterly miserable? How would the next generation be raised in a setting like this? Every society has men and women, every family has men and women. It would tear families apart, husbands from wives, brothers from sisters. And it would tear societies apart. Any society who went down the path of making women miserable, or men miserable, has not survived because it cannot reproduce and pass on its culture successfully.
- mitcheme 15y ago
  Why aren't we talking about the 1950's? If you're correct, that the problem is a lack of glamour, then the 50's should not have been a problem. Motherhood was the ultimate glamorous profession for a woman in those days. Sure, you can go to college, but there's no sense doing anything with it when you could get married. The ideal was a beautiful, spotless house in the suburbs, beautiful and well-behaved children, a great and successful husband. Dress up every day, makeup, hair, a pretty dress, pearls even. Fingers in every community organization: church, PTA, charities. You get to host parties, lots of parties. The way we talk about 50's homemaking today is a lot different from the way we talked about it then. Which cultures in which women are homemakers only, have stayed without change to gender roles for millenia? When I think of cultures that have stayed mostly unchanged, I think of the ones where women are contributing significantly to survival. Hunter-gatherer societies where men hunt and women gather. In most HG societies plant foods make up a large portion of the food; women's work is essential. And a step beyond that, societies where men hunt and women tend gardens or farms. Or where men and women farm and ranch together. Yes, women also tend to take care of the children in these societies. But modern-day me still has to do dishes and laundry; that doesn't preclude me from doing other things.
mitcheme 15y ago
nocipher, his analysis of women's creativity is wrong because we know women have created art throughout history. We don't actually know how much art, unfortunately, because historically, the bulk of women's creative expression was not considered "real art". It wasn't signed by its creator, and its recipients didn't treat it with that extra level of care to prevent it from being destroyed. That's a big issue when you're talking largely about decorative textiles and pottery. Then there are the women who posed as men to have their art be treated more seriously. Again, we don't actually know how many women have done this, we only know from some discovered examples that it's been done for quite a long time. So to say with confidence that women don't create art is wrong. We know there have been some, and many art historians suspect there have been much more than we give credit for because of the above factors. Like many 'innate' folks, he's made no effort to account for cultural factors before declaring things innate. My personal thought on this is that if women, like men, didn't have that creative drive, they would not have bothered to create in an environment where they were untrained in art, sometimes discouraged from doing it, and given no credit at all for their work. The only motivation I can see there is the pure joy of creating. Sure, you might need a pot, but there's no need to paint it with a scene from your local mythology. And I don't think anyone can come up with a materialistic reason that you might need a novel or a bit of poetry. His discussion on relative sex drives (sorry, typo) is spurious because, again, he doesn't separate this from cultural factors like what actions we define as being "normal" sex, and how the sexes relate to each other. The Mosuo, for example, does things differently. Instead of monogamy or polygyny, they have two-way polyamory. Young women are given a private place to bring lovers back to. She can bring home as many lovers as she likes, and the men can go to as many women's homes as they are invited to. If she wants, she invites him back, and if he wants, he goes. I remember reading that at one time, it wasn't unusual for a woman to have fifty partners in her lifetime. Women are under no economic or social pressure to invite lots of men over, so to me, it's really odd that this would be common if women didn't enjoy sex. Mosuo women these days have fewer partners, because they have access to a lot of western media and culture. Some girls are now afraid that if they invite over too many boys, they will be considered "slutty", and this is an image problem that the Mosuo as a whole are having. To me, that looks like proof that women are being discouraged from having as much sex as they'd like to have, thanks to social pressures that are inherent in our own culture. Or at least better proof than saying, "it happens, so it's genetic".

scott_s 15y ago

If you object to the word "successful," then just replace it with something else. His meaning is the same as in evolutionary biology: it out-competes its peers and continues to exist. He does not mean to imply that its good or that the people who comprise the culture are happy. By analogy, I would claim that sharks are successful. By the standard above, they clearly are: they've continued to exist and out-competed peer species for millions of years. But I'm making an objective claim only, not a value judgement on whether or not this is good.

run4yourlives 15y ago

> over half their population miserable Do you have any data to support the assertion that everyone that isn't occupying a high-status leadership role within a society is "miserable"? You're personalizing the argument and then missing the point.

sliverstorm 15y ago
You don't need to prove a statement like that. It's common knowledge the only people who are not miserable in the world have a net worth over $1B. Money, after all, is the one and only ingredient to happiness.

nocipher 15y ago

The generalizations aren't interesting though because they provide no fodder, no argument. Even without picking apart an argument line-by-line, your conclusions should be supported. Your response actually raises interesting points, but then leaves them without any supporting logic. Why is his analysis of women's creativity wrong? Where is the fault in his logic? What is a better analysis? Why is his discussion on relative sex spurious? I'm left with a lot of unanswered questions. I do not expect everyone to be able to give a very detailed analysis of an argument, but if there are key arguments you disagree with, it is not too much work to sketch your logic so that others understand your point.

cefarix 15y ago

One of the problems in Western cultures is that being a CEO, a President, a rockstar, an astronaut, etc is more highly valued than say, being a mother. This is why many Western women feel that being a mother with young kids and staying at home is not fulfilling their lives - because the cultural messages tell them that being a stay-at-home mom is an unglamarous job. You will find that not all cultures are like this - in many Asian cultures for example, being a mother is a very honorable and glamorous thing to do. Women usually make up more than half of a society's population, something you agree with yourself. In that case, don't think it highly unlikely that societies in which women are miserable might not survive long? And yet the cultures in which you assume women are miserable have survived, endured, and even thrived, for millennia (I'm not talking about the 50s in America here). Imagine the consequences if women were truly miserable in these societies: What would happen to the next generation? What would be the consequences of having a mother, grandmother, and aunts, who are utterly miserable? How would the next generation be raised in a setting like this? Every society has men and women, every family has men and women. It would tear families apart, husbands from wives, brothers from sisters. And it would tear societies apart. Any society who went down the path of making women miserable, or men miserable, has not survived because it cannot reproduce and pass on its culture successfully.

mitcheme 15y ago
Why aren't we talking about the 1950's? If you're correct, that the problem is a lack of glamour, then the 50's should not have been a problem. Motherhood was the ultimate glamorous profession for a woman in those days. Sure, you can go to college, but there's no sense doing anything with it when you could get married. The ideal was a beautiful, spotless house in the suburbs, beautiful and well-behaved children, a great and successful husband. Dress up every day, makeup, hair, a pretty dress, pearls even. Fingers in every community organization: church, PTA, charities. You get to host parties, lots of parties. The way we talk about 50's homemaking today is a lot different from the way we talked about it then. Which cultures in which women are homemakers only, have stayed without change to gender roles for millenia? When I think of cultures that have stayed mostly unchanged, I think of the ones where women are contributing significantly to survival. Hunter-gatherer societies where men hunt and women gather. In most HG societies plant foods make up a large portion of the food; women's work is essential. And a step beyond that, societies where men hunt and women tend gardens or farms. Or where men and women farm and ranch together. Yes, women also tend to take care of the children in these societies. But modern-day me still has to do dishes and laundry; that doesn't preclude me from doing other things.

mitcheme 15y ago

nocipher, his analysis of women's creativity is wrong because we know women have created art throughout history. We don't actually know how much art, unfortunately, because historically, the bulk of women's creative expression was not considered "real art". It wasn't signed by its creator, and its recipients didn't treat it with that extra level of care to prevent it from being destroyed. That's a big issue when you're talking largely about decorative textiles and pottery. Then there are the women who posed as men to have their art be treated more seriously. Again, we don't actually know how many women have done this, we only know from some discovered examples that it's been done for quite a long time. So to say with confidence that women don't create art is wrong. We know there have been some, and many art historians suspect there have been much more than we give credit for because of the above factors. Like many 'innate' folks, he's made no effort to account for cultural factors before declaring things innate. My personal thought on this is that if women, like men, didn't have that creative drive, they would not have bothered to create in an environment where they were untrained in art, sometimes discouraged from doing it, and given no credit at all for their work. The only motivation I can see there is the pure joy of creating. Sure, you might need a pot, but there's no need to paint it with a scene from your local mythology. And I don't think anyone can come up with a materialistic reason that you might need a novel or a bit of poetry. His discussion on relative sex drives (sorry, typo) is spurious because, again, he doesn't separate this from cultural factors like what actions we define as being "normal" sex, and how the sexes relate to each other. The Mosuo, for example, does things differently. Instead of monogamy or polygyny, they have two-way polyamory. Young women are given a private place to bring lovers back to. She can bring home as many lovers as she likes, and the men can go to as many women's homes as they are invited to. If she wants, she invites him back, and if he wants, he goes. I remember reading that at one time, it wasn't unusual for a woman to have fifty partners in her lifetime. Women are under no economic or social pressure to invite lots of men over, so to me, it's really odd that this would be common if women didn't enjoy sex. Mosuo women these days have fewer partners, because they have access to a lot of western media and culture. Some girls are now afraid that if they invite over too many boys, they will be considered "slutty", and this is an image problem that the Mosuo as a whole are having. To me, that looks like proof that women are being discouraged from having as much sex as they'd like to have, thanks to social pressures that are inherent in our own culture. Or at least better proof than saying, "it happens, so it's genetic".