5 ms·

I'm wondering why most of the comments here are not discussing the content of the article but rather the general HK protest. Most of people in China understand

I'm wondering why most of the comments here are not discussing the content of the article but rather the general HK protest. Most of people in China understand the value of rule of law. And we never deny that the environment there is far from any democratic western society. But if you read the article and are the readers of the mentioned media outlets you would agree a bit that those are a little dubious (Post852, Winandmac Media etc, Apple Daily included). It's definitely not good to have a sweeping ban, but pretending all non-mainland chinese media is pro democracy and liberal values and not populist (sometimes provocative and radicalised) to attract viewers is a little naive in my humble opinion.

WastingMyTime89 5y ago
So just to be clear you actually believe that media being populist justify abitrary detentions, jailing people from indefinite duration without ever putting them to trial while threatening them with life in prison if not straight murder?
- dumb1224 5y ago
  I doubt anyone with the right mind would support that, wouldn't you agree? But I'm afraid nobody has perfect information. People in mainland China read anything with filters and are aware of what's really going on, so I don't think it should be that different elsewhere.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > I'm afraid nobody has perfect information. People in mainland China read anything with filters and are aware of what's really going on, so I don't think it should be that different elsewhere. That's a false equivalency, like saying 'people in Pyonyang aren't perfectly free, nor are people in New York, so it's basically the same.' It's not at all the same.
    - dumb1224 5y ago
      I didn't equate anything to anything. I simply pointed out that no one has perfect information. What you read about China might be a mix of many true and false (maybe exaggerated) information. I'm not even comparing different population. If I wasn't clear then I apologise.
      - wolverine876 5y ago
        > I simply pointed out that no one has perfect information. What you read about China might be a mix of many true and false (maybe exaggerated) information. Unless you are drawing an equivalency between the CCP censored and created information on one hand, and the New York Times and Jonathan Spence on the other, I don't see what the point is. 'No information is perfect'? A similar claim is, 'no composer writes flawless music', but that tells us nothing about anything; it fails even to distinguish between Bach and me.
        dumb1224 5y ago
        Sorry again, I meant 'no one knows all the correct information'. I don't understand why you are so fond of comparison. Fine, I'll attempt one. What you read on New York Times about China could be high recall but low precision; and what I read from chinese sources (not necessarily press) may be high precision but low recall (not sure if I got it right...laugh).
        wolverine876 5y ago
        We're kinda going in circles. 'no one knows all the correct information' isn't more meaningful than any other statement about perfection. Some people have far better information than others. Some people believe the earth is flat, others know astrophysics, neither has perfect information but that statement tells us nothing about the information they do have.
        dumb1224 5y ago
        I do realise that I'm not contributing much more details or concrete examples so I should probably stop (besides I do have a small child who tends wake up early). Thanks for the discussion and all points taken.
wolverine876 5y ago
> But if you read the article and are the readers of the mentioned media outlets you would agree a bit that those are a little dubious (Post852, Winandmac Media etc, Apple Daily included). It's definitely not good to have a sweeping ban, but pretending all non-mainland chinese media is pro democracy and liberal values and not populist (sometimes provocative and radicalised) to attract viewers is a little naive in my humble opinion. Well, you can express your point of view, but don't tell everyone else what they think. If imperfection were a sin to deny rights and power, then who would have rights and power? Certainly not the Chinese government!
- dumb1224 5y ago
  That's quite an elevated take of my comment. I never implied they are 'sin' or telling people what to think (it would be a compliment as I'm usually not very persuasive). I'm just stating that I have limited sympathy for them as they are not as credible as you think. Any chinese will know for sure they will be shut for some reason such as crossing a redline. Whether that's right or wrong it's your judgement. There are plenty of good media being punished in mainland China that got people angry and people protested and reversed their ban but the ones in the articles are not those.
  - hkmaxpro 5y ago
    Can you define “dubious” and “crossing a redline” (so that they need to be shut) according to HK laws? Without a precise definition we cannot have a fruitful discussion.
    - dumb1224 5y ago
      It is quite obvious they belong to a more sensationalism type of tabloid media. I refer them as 'dubious' due to this credibility issue. I may be wrong but there are definitely evidence of misinformation https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/risj-review/hong-kongs-apple-daily-local-journalists-perspective-jimmy-lais-youth-reach https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/risj-review/hong-... Sure in a western democracy it's fine (given that there's at least some alignment with party interest). But once it gets a lot of attention and an influencer status then the authoritarian gov won't let it grow further without consequences for sure. 'Redline' is a bad term but it's usually separatist, discrimination speech etc. Not all 'pro-democracy' media are targeted because they are simply not big enough yet. Disclaimer: I'm not necessarily defending any side, just want to discuss more nuances.

WastingMyTime89 5y ago

So just to be clear you actually believe that media being populist justify abitrary detentions, jailing people from indefinite duration without ever putting them to trial while threatening them with life in prison if not straight murder?

dumb1224 5y ago
I doubt anyone with the right mind would support that, wouldn't you agree? But I'm afraid nobody has perfect information. People in mainland China read anything with filters and are aware of what's really going on, so I don't think it should be that different elsewhere.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > I'm afraid nobody has perfect information. People in mainland China read anything with filters and are aware of what's really going on, so I don't think it should be that different elsewhere. That's a false equivalency, like saying 'people in Pyonyang aren't perfectly free, nor are people in New York, so it's basically the same.' It's not at all the same.
  - dumb1224 5y ago
    I didn't equate anything to anything. I simply pointed out that no one has perfect information. What you read about China might be a mix of many true and false (maybe exaggerated) information. I'm not even comparing different population. If I wasn't clear then I apologise.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      > I simply pointed out that no one has perfect information. What you read about China might be a mix of many true and false (maybe exaggerated) information. Unless you are drawing an equivalency between the CCP censored and created information on one hand, and the New York Times and Jonathan Spence on the other, I don't see what the point is. 'No information is perfect'? A similar claim is, 'no composer writes flawless music', but that tells us nothing about anything; it fails even to distinguish between Bach and me.
      - dumb1224 5y ago
        Sorry again, I meant 'no one knows all the correct information'. I don't understand why you are so fond of comparison. Fine, I'll attempt one. What you read on New York Times about China could be high recall but low precision; and what I read from chinese sources (not necessarily press) may be high precision but low recall (not sure if I got it right...laugh).
        wolverine876 5y ago
        We're kinda going in circles. 'no one knows all the correct information' isn't more meaningful than any other statement about perfection. Some people have far better information than others. Some people believe the earth is flat, others know astrophysics, neither has perfect information but that statement tells us nothing about the information they do have.
        dumb1224 5y ago
        I do realise that I'm not contributing much more details or concrete examples so I should probably stop (besides I do have a small child who tends wake up early). Thanks for the discussion and all points taken.

wolverine876 5y ago

> But if you read the article and are the readers of the mentioned media outlets you would agree a bit that those are a little dubious (Post852, Winandmac Media etc, Apple Daily included). It's definitely not good to have a sweeping ban, but pretending all non-mainland chinese media is pro democracy and liberal values and not populist (sometimes provocative and radicalised) to attract viewers is a little naive in my humble opinion. Well, you can express your point of view, but don't tell everyone else what they think. If imperfection were a sin to deny rights and power, then who would have rights and power? Certainly not the Chinese government!

dumb1224 5y ago
That's quite an elevated take of my comment. I never implied they are 'sin' or telling people what to think (it would be a compliment as I'm usually not very persuasive). I'm just stating that I have limited sympathy for them as they are not as credible as you think. Any chinese will know for sure they will be shut for some reason such as crossing a redline. Whether that's right or wrong it's your judgement. There are plenty of good media being punished in mainland China that got people angry and people protested and reversed their ban but the ones in the articles are not those.
- hkmaxpro 5y ago
  Can you define “dubious” and “crossing a redline” (so that they need to be shut) according to HK laws? Without a precise definition we cannot have a fruitful discussion.
  - dumb1224 5y ago
    It is quite obvious they belong to a more sensationalism type of tabloid media. I refer them as 'dubious' due to this credibility issue. I may be wrong but there are definitely evidence of misinformation https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/risj-review/hong-kongs-apple-daily-local-journalists-perspective-jimmy-lais-youth-reach https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/risj-review/hong-... Sure in a western democracy it's fine (given that there's at least some alignment with party interest). But once it gets a lot of attention and an influencer status then the authoritarian gov won't let it grow further without consequences for sure. 'Redline' is a bad term but it's usually separatist, discrimination speech etc. Not all 'pro-democracy' media are targeted because they are simply not big enough yet. Disclaimer: I'm not necessarily defending any side, just want to discuss more nuances.