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This. I don’t know why people found Obama’s position on gay marriage so difficult to understand. It was simple. In 2008, he had to win a Democratic primary. Thi
by nindalf 5y ago
This. I don’t know why people found Obama’s position on gay marriage so difficult to understand. It was simple. In 2008, he had to win a Democratic primary. This meant echoing the stances that would be popular with Democratic primary voters. In Obama’s case, he needed all of the black vote as well. Only 60% of Democrats in 2008 supported marriage equality, compared to 80% in 2020 (https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486/record-high-support-same-sex-marriage.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486/record-high-support-same...). Black voters are more likely to be religious, more likely to regularly attend church and therefore less likely to support marriage equality (https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/182978/religion-race-sex-marriage.aspx https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/182978/relig...). Pleasing black voters meant taking a “safe” stance on gay rights, one shared by all mainstream national politicians at the time.
In 2012 it was different. There was no primary. Obama could afford to be less of a follower and more of a leader. Black voters might not be enthusiastic about gay rights, but there was no doubt they’d show up to vote for their guy. So Obama calculated he could get the black vote and the gay vote by “evolving” his public stance.
This is of course separate from his own personal stance, which likely hasn’t evolved in a long time. What people find difficult to understand is that public figures have public and private personas.
- refurb 5y agoTo be honest that sounds like lying and manipulating the public. Not singling out Obama here because all politicians do it to an extent (the ones who don’t never get far). Just calling out it’s not exactly a virtue.
- danielheath 5y agoIs it virtuous to be truthful when that means giving up a chance to meaningfully improve the world? Obama presided over many terrible things, but overall the amount of terrible things dropped during his tenure. Not sure virtue is the right word but it’s more complicated than “lying bad”.
- nindalf 5y agoLying? Manipulating? What? Is it wrong for a politician to mirror the opinions of their voters? That’s literally what a representative democracy is supposed to be. Is it wrong for a person to express their heart felt opinion to folks who like and trust them? Isn’t that what all human communication is? Obama did the right thing, in both 2008 and 2012. If he does 2008 differently, he remains a Senator with no national platform. If he does 2012 differently and doesn’t use his national platform to advocate for gay rights, maybe it takes longer for it to reach 80% support in the general population. If you’d like to actually understand politics, I’d suggest reading The Dictators Handbook or watching this video for the tldr- https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs
- mensetmanusman 5y agoThe ends don’t justify the means, but you hear a lot of elites talk about tricking the population, because they think the average person is dumb. Then they can get elected and can really change the laws when they are in power to help their subjects who “clearly can’t help themselves”.
- nindalf 5y agoElecting a representative who will make decisions on your behalf is what representative democracy is.
- orestarod 5y agoIn a representative democracy, do you have a say, control or checks in what decisions those representatives you elected make? Or do they do whatever they want and, tough luck, wait 4 years? Or do they do the opposite of what they promised and tough luck, 4 years again? And the same 2 parties which are essentially the same can get elected and none else, so... tough luck in general?
- nindalf 5y agoIf you have a system that consistently makes better decisions and leads to better outcomes for more people across countries and eras, I'd be delighted to hear it.
- 2muchcoffeeman 5y agoHow else would you get change in the US (and other western democracies I guess?) Not so long ago politicians were chastised for “flip flopping”. How does one incorporate new information and update their views in such an environment?
- drchickensalad 5y agoWe have a system where you get a large performance benefit from doing the tactics mentioned above. Therefore, the system will always be moving towards more consistently acting that way. It's not right or wrong driving much of anything, just survival. If this is bad, the incentives must be changed; you can't just wish people were nicer, cause even if you got your wish magically, they'd still lose to those that aren't
- zentiggr 5y agoBehavior follows the rewards. Personal, political, corporate, and especially in the natural world. Not just politicians, although they are the most visible at it.
- mensetmanusman 5y agoIt is interesting that our whole system is based on lying and justifying lying.
- colechristensen 5y agoWould you say the same things about John McCain during his election campaign?
- nindalf 5y agoCertainly. McCain had to say what would win him the primary. That’s just how a representative democracy works. You’re a follower first, a leader later. I can’t say how President McCain might have led his supporters.
- dillondoyle 5y agoI think McCain might be the ultimate example of an established political personality 180'ing their rhetoric to win an election. The maverick disappeared, and then evidently came back in a wheel chair to 'bravely' thumbs down an obamacare repeal attempt lol.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago>I don’t know why people found Obama’s position on gay marriage so difficult to understand. Because he could have just as easily STFU'd and said some mumbo jumbo without giving a real answer. As a career politician (and well spoken one at that) giving a non-answer that gives both sides hope he'll be on their side was perfectly within his capability.
- nindalf 5y agoOh you know better? He accomplished his goals - being elected twice. Marriage equality also become a reality in his tenure. A big part of that was it going on the ballot with him in 2012 and winning. Maybe he isn't the one who needs to STFU.