5 ms·

I stumbled upon an unusual policy when trying to order from B&H the first time. They are not open for business on Shabbat (NYC local time), and this includes th

I stumbled upon an unusual policy when trying to order from B&H the first time. They are not open for business on Shabbat (NYC local time), and this includes their online checkout! I could fill up my cart, but had to come back later to do my purchase.

xvector 5y ago
True. B&H is sort of unusual in this regards, but from what I hear their employees are treated well, and the lack of tax is well worth it!
- cfqycwz 5y ago
  Fwiw there has been some history of B&H workers being treated fairly not-well. I encourage reading past the first few paragraphs of this article as it's not all "union stuff"--there are lawsuits, DOL complaints, and OSHA fines as well: https://gothamist.com/news/bh-photo-workers-strike-on-may-day-to-protest-their-jobs-moving-to-new-jersey https://gothamist.com/news/bh-photo-workers-strike-on-may-da...
  - xvector 5y ago
    Interesting, thank you!
  - ixtli 5y ago
    Thank you for pointing this out. I live in the area and showed up for the pickets when they fired all of their warehouse employees for complaining about unsafe working conditions. If possible use Adorama or some competitor.
- spoonjim 5y ago
  Note that B&H has been sued for discriminating against its non-Jewish employees: https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/new-lawsuit-claims-b-and-h-discriminates-against-non-jewish-employees-571983/amp https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/new-lawsuit-claims-b-and-h-disc...
  - xvector 5y ago
    That's horrible. Thanks for letting me know!
    - vtail 5y ago
      Could you please clarify what do you think is horrible? Anyone can sue anyone in the US, for any reason, and allege a lot of bad things. It also true that cost of litigation is often much, much higher than a settlement - e.g. the 3 employee suing asked for $200k in damages, which I assume is just an opening offer. A reasonable lawyer can easily cost upwards of $500/hr, and require many, many hours of work even if the process never gets to the court. My close friend is been sued for ridiculous reasons by ex-partners. It already costed him $750k in legal fees,and although he is very likely to win the case, it’s expected to take another 2 years before the case is resolved, at which point he will be allowed to file for recovering his costs (easily anothe couple of years).
      - Rantenki 5y ago
        It's not a mere allegation, they lost a similar suit about hispanic employees, and had a HUGE settlement ruling against them: https://www.eeoc.gov/newsroom/eeoc-and-b-h-reach-43-million-settlement-national-origin-discrimination-case https://www.eeoc.gov/newsroom/eeoc-and-b-h-reach-43-million-... They've been proven to discriminate, in a court of law. I'd give this new lawsuit the benefit of the doubt.
        vtail 5y ago
        Thank you, this is important context I was not aware of, although to be fair, these events happened 10 years prior to the new case.
      - DetroitThrow 5y ago
        >Could you please clarify what do you think is horrible [about an employee discrimination lawsuit]? I wonder why so many forum users frame statements they want to make as questions which challenge innocent comments.
TchoBeer 5y ago
Woah, I did not know B&H was an orthodox institution! That's quite neat.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  Very much so. It’s an amazing retail space. They have this awesome overhead rail system for delivering goods, and their checkout resembles customs at an airport (a bit disconcerting).
wyldfire 5y ago
I respect people's religions but adherence to constraints like these -- to the extent that the automatons cannot even work -- are silly.
- sombremesa 5y ago
  Well, the website being up and somewhat usable means the automatons are working. Makes this policy even more nonsensical.
- neilv 5y ago
  IIUC, it's a religious/cultural observance that's very important to them, I think a kind of reminder. I'd say respecting that means respecting that. Also, I loved B&H when I was seriously into photography, and even if the closed days had been a practical inconvenience (they weren't, IME), it would've still been worthwhile. Speculating... Maybe something in the culture of dutiful adherence also helped them to provide such well-respected service at great prices? Diversity is good.
- fortran77 5y ago
  You can't say you respect my religion and then call me silly at the same time. Perhaps you're the one that's silly.
  - tomc1985 5y ago
    Silliness and respect are mutually exclusive?
  - hanche 5y ago
    I think respect is for people, not religions. I don’t even know what it means to respect a religion, unless you adhere to it. Respect for people includes respecting their right to practice their religion, even if you think it is silly. That respect also means you don’t go out of your way to point fingers and laugh at every opportunity, but not the obligation to keep your opinion secret either. Due respect can be a difficult balancing act sometimes.
- vincnetas 5y ago
nanidin 5y ago
It's a bit strange because if you go to actual Israel, there are ways around Shabbat rules that align with the Torah/Talmud. For example, on Shabbat, there is an elevator that stops at every floor (so no one has to push the button). It's also my understanding that it's kosher for gentiles to perform actions outside of the constraints of the rules of Judaism, like turning on/off fans on behalf of those respecting the rules of the sabbath.
- amscanne 5y ago
  > there are ways around Shabbat rules that align with the Torah/Talmud As with any religious practices, there’s a wide spectrum of how people follow or don’t follow the doctrine. There’s no shortage of Rabbis who have haggled over the fine details of how they apply to modern society, like your elevator example. Personally, I like the idea of aligning and adapting the general intent as opposed to rule hacking, and it’s neat to leave that cultural stamp on the business (at some cost, I’m sure).
frereubu 5y ago
A friend of mine worked with some Plymouth Brethren who wouldn't use computers, but had a stationery company. They employed someone else to build them a website and run it, then print out the orders and hand them over. I've not heard of a religious order that didn't even want to allow people outside the order to "break" the rules. Although perhaps it's something about money ending up in their bank account?

xvector 5y ago

True. B&H is sort of unusual in this regards, but from what I hear their employees are treated well, and the lack of tax is well worth it!

cfqycwz 5y ago
Fwiw there has been some history of B&H workers being treated fairly not-well. I encourage reading past the first few paragraphs of this article as it's not all "union stuff"--there are lawsuits, DOL complaints, and OSHA fines as well: https://gothamist.com/news/bh-photo-workers-strike-on-may-day-to-protest-their-jobs-moving-to-new-jersey https://gothamist.com/news/bh-photo-workers-strike-on-may-da...
- xvector 5y ago
  Interesting, thank you!
- ixtli 5y ago
  Thank you for pointing this out. I live in the area and showed up for the pickets when they fired all of their warehouse employees for complaining about unsafe working conditions. If possible use Adorama or some competitor.
spoonjim 5y ago
Note that B&H has been sued for discriminating against its non-Jewish employees: https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/new-lawsuit-claims-b-and-h-discriminates-against-non-jewish-employees-571983/amp https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/new-lawsuit-claims-b-and-h-disc...
- xvector 5y ago
  That's horrible. Thanks for letting me know!
  - vtail 5y ago
    Could you please clarify what do you think is horrible? Anyone can sue anyone in the US, for any reason, and allege a lot of bad things. It also true that cost of litigation is often much, much higher than a settlement - e.g. the 3 employee suing asked for $200k in damages, which I assume is just an opening offer. A reasonable lawyer can easily cost upwards of $500/hr, and require many, many hours of work even if the process never gets to the court. My close friend is been sued for ridiculous reasons by ex-partners. It already costed him $750k in legal fees,and although he is very likely to win the case, it’s expected to take another 2 years before the case is resolved, at which point he will be allowed to file for recovering his costs (easily anothe couple of years).
    - Rantenki 5y ago
      It's not a mere allegation, they lost a similar suit about hispanic employees, and had a HUGE settlement ruling against them: https://www.eeoc.gov/newsroom/eeoc-and-b-h-reach-43-million-settlement-national-origin-discrimination-case https://www.eeoc.gov/newsroom/eeoc-and-b-h-reach-43-million-... They've been proven to discriminate, in a court of law. I'd give this new lawsuit the benefit of the doubt.
      - vtail 5y ago
        Thank you, this is important context I was not aware of, although to be fair, these events happened 10 years prior to the new case.
    - DetroitThrow 5y ago
      >Could you please clarify what do you think is horrible [about an employee discrimination lawsuit]? I wonder why so many forum users frame statements they want to make as questions which challenge innocent comments.

TchoBeer 5y ago

Woah, I did not know B&H was an orthodox institution! That's quite neat.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
Very much so. It’s an amazing retail space. They have this awesome overhead rail system for delivering goods, and their checkout resembles customs at an airport (a bit disconcerting).

wyldfire 5y ago

I respect people's religions but adherence to constraints like these -- to the extent that the automatons cannot even work -- are silly.

sombremesa 5y ago
Well, the website being up and somewhat usable means the automatons are working. Makes this policy even more nonsensical.
neilv 5y ago
IIUC, it's a religious/cultural observance that's very important to them, I think a kind of reminder. I'd say respecting that means respecting that. Also, I loved B&H when I was seriously into photography, and even if the closed days had been a practical inconvenience (they weren't, IME), it would've still been worthwhile. Speculating... Maybe something in the culture of dutiful adherence also helped them to provide such well-respected service at great prices? Diversity is good.
fortran77 5y ago
You can't say you respect my religion and then call me silly at the same time. Perhaps you're the one that's silly.
- tomc1985 5y ago
  Silliness and respect are mutually exclusive?
- hanche 5y ago
  I think respect is for people, not religions. I don’t even know what it means to respect a religion, unless you adhere to it. Respect for people includes respecting their right to practice their religion, even if you think it is silly. That respect also means you don’t go out of your way to point fingers and laugh at every opportunity, but not the obligation to keep your opinion secret either. Due respect can be a difficult balancing act sometimes.
vincnetas 5y ago

nanidin 5y ago

It's a bit strange because if you go to actual Israel, there are ways around Shabbat rules that align with the Torah/Talmud. For example, on Shabbat, there is an elevator that stops at every floor (so no one has to push the button). It's also my understanding that it's kosher for gentiles to perform actions outside of the constraints of the rules of Judaism, like turning on/off fans on behalf of those respecting the rules of the sabbath.

amscanne 5y ago
> there are ways around Shabbat rules that align with the Torah/Talmud As with any religious practices, there’s a wide spectrum of how people follow or don’t follow the doctrine. There’s no shortage of Rabbis who have haggled over the fine details of how they apply to modern society, like your elevator example. Personally, I like the idea of aligning and adapting the general intent as opposed to rule hacking, and it’s neat to leave that cultural stamp on the business (at some cost, I’m sure).

frereubu 5y ago

A friend of mine worked with some Plymouth Brethren who wouldn't use computers, but had a stationery company. They employed someone else to build them a website and run it, then print out the orders and hand them over. I've not heard of a religious order that didn't even want to allow people outside the order to "break" the rules. Although perhaps it's something about money ending up in their bank account?