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This seems completely insane to me. How is this possible? I like Cliff Stoll and have been looking forward to my first Klein bottle purchase for some years now

This seems completely insane to me. How is this possible? I like Cliff Stoll and have been looking forward to my first Klein bottle purchase for some years now, so I say this without any insinuation Cliff's not telling the whole story: There's got to be more to it than this, right? Can someone really go on Amazon, effectively take over someone's storefront, and completely ransack the place this easily? Because Cliff doesn't have a registered trademark? This seems out of this world absurd.

errantspark 5y ago
Well, it's not strictly regulated and it's a monopoly so...
enjeyw 5y ago
On the bright side, I think I’ve finally manage to internalise the meaning of “Kafkaesque”.
II2II 5y ago
I don't know if it is easy, but I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon is aware of the problem. There was a discussion about selling products through Amazon on The Amp Hour a few months back, and part of the discussion included trademarks as a requirement. They made it sound like a new and expensive hurdle to deal with. Given Stoll's comments, it sounds like the lack of a registered trademark was a contributing factor to his problem. Putting the two together leads me to believe that Amazon is aware this can happen. (From the show notes, it looks like https://theamphour.com/523-a-keyzermas-story/ https://theamphour.com/523-a-keyzermas-story/ is the episode in question.) Edit: for clarity.
fredsir 5y ago
Does it really? With what I’ve been reading about what is going on over at Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook, this doesn’t surprise me at all. It’s awful, but not surprising. And reading about how Amazon treats it’s employees, as has been covered on this site numerous times in the last while, it’s even less surprising. And continuing to use those services is giving a vote for those practices to keep on keeping on, and that people still use them? Well, no, it’s not surprising but it’s sad.
- Nicksil 5y ago
  To me, yes, it is surprising. But likely because I don't use Amazon, Twitter, YouTube, FaceBook, and so do not read the things you're reading (or at least as much) but I understand your point nonetheless. I skim past the numerous stories regarding how awful these companies behave and yet continue to reap massive profits. I've known Amazon was bad, but not this bad. It's a shit state of affairs.
KirillPanov 5y ago
I am confused too. Especially this part: On June 22nd, they used Amazon's Brand Registry to re-brand my listing on Amazon (replacing my brand, "Acme Klein Bottle" with "Amvoom") They could do this because Amazon's Brand Registry only respects issued trademarks. I don't get this at all. Attacker has a trademark on "Amvoom". The word "Amvoom" does not appear in Stoll's product name or description. It isn't even close to any of the words in the product name. FWIW I fully 100% believe Stoll. But the real question here is why is a "brand registry" allowing product takeovers that don't involve said brand? That seems to rise far beyond the usual Amazon bullshit, to straight-up algorithmic incompetence. How is this possible?
- CliffStoll 5y ago
  Kirill, you've put your finger on the central problem. Amazon should check that a product which is claimed by a Brand is actually covered by the "goods & services" listed under that trademark.
  - KirillPanov 5y ago
    I just want to say: your crawlspace-forklift is beyond awesome. https://hackaday.com/2015/06/24/crawlspace-warehouse-includes-midget-forklift/ https://hackaday.com/2015/06/24/crawlspace-warehouse-include... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU
    - CliffStoll 5y ago
      (blush) It's my way to cheat the chiropractor. Anything to avoid crawling around under my house.
- Nicksil 5y ago
  Exactly. That's why I was dumbfounded; it just seemed too ridiculous to be real. These companies really don't give a shit about people; they just continue to recite something about "customer obsession" and return to patting themselves on the back.
gnopgnip 5y ago
Hijacking listing with good ratings is very common for products that are not gated One view is that Amazon wants sellers to register their trademarks formally with the government, then go through the brand registry process to prevent this.
CliffStoll 5y ago
Hi Nick, And thank you for your kind note. I'm in the embarrassing position of asking you to wait a few months, as I'm very low in stock; I hope to have more glass Klein bottles by late summer. (Klein bottle hats & Mobius scarves, happily, I have plenty).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
eyepulp 5y ago
Are you saying Cliff's claims are too... one-sided?

errantspark 5y ago

Well, it's not strictly regulated and it's a monopoly so...

enjeyw 5y ago

On the bright side, I think I’ve finally manage to internalise the meaning of “Kafkaesque”.

II2II 5y ago

I don't know if it is easy, but I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon is aware of the problem. There was a discussion about selling products through Amazon on The Amp Hour a few months back, and part of the discussion included trademarks as a requirement. They made it sound like a new and expensive hurdle to deal with. Given Stoll's comments, it sounds like the lack of a registered trademark was a contributing factor to his problem. Putting the two together leads me to believe that Amazon is aware this can happen. (From the show notes, it looks like https://theamphour.com/523-a-keyzermas-story/ https://theamphour.com/523-a-keyzermas-story/ is the episode in question.) Edit: for clarity.

fredsir 5y ago

Does it really? With what I’ve been reading about what is going on over at Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook, this doesn’t surprise me at all. It’s awful, but not surprising. And reading about how Amazon treats it’s employees, as has been covered on this site numerous times in the last while, it’s even less surprising. And continuing to use those services is giving a vote for those practices to keep on keeping on, and that people still use them? Well, no, it’s not surprising but it’s sad.

Nicksil 5y ago
To me, yes, it is surprising. But likely because I don't use Amazon, Twitter, YouTube, FaceBook, and so do not read the things you're reading (or at least as much) but I understand your point nonetheless. I skim past the numerous stories regarding how awful these companies behave and yet continue to reap massive profits. I've known Amazon was bad, but not this bad. It's a shit state of affairs.

KirillPanov 5y ago

I am confused too. Especially this part: On June 22nd, they used Amazon's Brand Registry to re-brand my listing on Amazon (replacing my brand, "Acme Klein Bottle" with "Amvoom") They could do this because Amazon's Brand Registry only respects issued trademarks. I don't get this at all. Attacker has a trademark on "Amvoom". The word "Amvoom" does not appear in Stoll's product name or description. It isn't even close to any of the words in the product name. FWIW I fully 100% believe Stoll. But the real question here is why is a "brand registry" allowing product takeovers that don't involve said brand? That seems to rise far beyond the usual Amazon bullshit, to straight-up algorithmic incompetence. How is this possible?

CliffStoll 5y ago
Kirill, you've put your finger on the central problem. Amazon should check that a product which is claimed by a Brand is actually covered by the "goods & services" listed under that trademark.
- KirillPanov 5y ago
  I just want to say: your crawlspace-forklift is beyond awesome. https://hackaday.com/2015/06/24/crawlspace-warehouse-includes-midget-forklift/ https://hackaday.com/2015/06/24/crawlspace-warehouse-include... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU
  - CliffStoll 5y ago
    (blush) It's my way to cheat the chiropractor. Anything to avoid crawling around under my house.
Nicksil 5y ago
Exactly. That's why I was dumbfounded; it just seemed too ridiculous to be real. These companies really don't give a shit about people; they just continue to recite something about "customer obsession" and return to patting themselves on the back.

gnopgnip 5y ago

Hijacking listing with good ratings is very common for products that are not gated One view is that Amazon wants sellers to register their trademarks formally with the government, then go through the brand registry process to prevent this.

CliffStoll 5y ago

Hi Nick, And thank you for your kind note. I'm in the embarrassing position of asking you to wait a few months, as I'm very low in stock; I hope to have more glass Klein bottles by late summer. (Klein bottle hats & Mobius scarves, happily, I have plenty).

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

eyepulp 5y ago

Are you saying Cliff's claims are too... one-sided?