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The best way to put pressure on the Chinese Communist Party and help pro-democracy voices in Hong Kong (and the reduce Uygher genocide) is to avoid buying Made

The best way to put pressure on the Chinese Communist Party and help pro-democracy voices in Hong Kong (and the reduce Uygher genocide) is to avoid buying Made in China goods where possible. This means buying Western, Korean and Japanese brands that aren't manufactured in China. Eg, a Samsung phone over Apple (made in Vietnam than Made in China), a Western Digital hard drive (made in Thailand) etc. There are an increasing number alternatives to Made in China, across all product lines as manufacturing moves to Vietnam (and the rest of South East Asia), India, Bangladesh etc as wages in China rise.

northwest65 5y ago
Maybe a better way would be to stop selling them food. We still want to buy Apple products, but they need to buy food.
- throwawaycities 5y ago
  Remember during the pandemic when China threatened to stop selling masks, PPE and IVs? Immediately Trump stopped calling it “The China Virus” and then China “donated” millions of masks to the US for the international PR.
  - kova12 5y ago
    we all want to believe that we live in the world which gravitates towards good, rather than some game of thrones. But we all might be suffering from survivor bias. People don't work together well when there are too many of them. I personally won't be surprised if very soon shit finally hits the fan and those who live through it would be happy to merely stay alive
- jawkx 5y ago
  "Starving the Chinese to own the CCP" and then blamed China for the famine after that, westerner are playing 4d chess man
- femto 5y ago
  I disagree, in that the problem is the Chinese Communist Party, not the Chinese people. It's also contradictory to counter a bully by being a bully. Having said that: iron ore, not food. As a thought experiment: it would be most effective to target China's main imports: integrated circuits, oil, iron ore, ... [1] ICs are mainly used in exports so limited domestic impact, oil can be had from any number of despotic partners, iron ore on the other hand... Most of China's iron ore comes from Australia, and there is currently no alternative. If Australia refused to sell iron ore to China it would really screw up China's economy [2] (and Australia's): Proof of China's dependence on Australian iron ore is in the current sanctions the CCP is placing on Australia, as payback for Australia not kowtowing to the CCP [3]. The result has been a major loss of face for the CCP, in that it has made Australia's economy more resilient by forcing diversification of its export markets, in the process reducing CCP's influence, simultaneous with Australia's exports to China continuing to break new records [4]. No one is under any illusions that the CCP would dearly like to stop iron ore imports from Australia, but it can't. Eventually the CCP may be able to wean China off Australian iron ore, but chances are it will happen so slowly that Australia will have time to find new markets. Yes, Australia could screw China, as the CCP is trying to do to Australia, but that would only reduce Australia to the same level as the CCP and ruin Australia's goodwill with the Chinese people (the CCP is not China). [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=china%27s+biggest+imports https://www.google.com/search?q=china%27s+biggest+imports [2] https://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/what-would-happen-if-china-stopped-buying-australian-iron-ore/ https://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/what-would-happen-if-ch... [3] https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/if-you-make-china-the-enemy-china-will-be-the-enemy-beijing-s-fresh-threat-to-australia-20201118-p56fqs.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/if-you-make-china-the-enem... [4] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-26/australian-economy-coping-well-after-chinese-trade-restrictions/13090436 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-26/australian-economy-co...
  - GordonS 5y ago
    > ICs are mainly used in exports so limited domestic impact, Then China would impose tit-for-tat tarrifs - imagine they slapped a 100% tariff on ICs.
- 2xpress 5y ago
  Stop selling food?? That's just evil! It's ok to sell food, and every dollar they spend of food is one less for ballistic missiles.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > Stop selling food?? That's just evil! It's also stupid. What did the PRC do in response to US tariffs? Voluntarily stop buying US food. The PRC doesn't need US food, it can buy what it needs elsewhere (e.g. soybeans from Brazil instead of Illinois).
tablespoon 5y ago
> The best way to put pressure on the Chinese Communist Party and help pro-democracy voices in Hong Kong (and the reduce Uygher genocide) is to avoid buying Made in China goods where possible. Decoupling could be helpful on several fronts, but it's not going to happen via individualist boycotts. Those are useless, and just too many things are made in China without realistic alternatives. If it's going to happen, it'll be through increasing tariffs (preferably slowly over time) and other government policy.
- someperson 5y ago
  Yes, individual boycotts are not the only way. Government policy is certainly required too. Both punitive (increasing tariffs), requiring made outside China sourcing, and also investing in supply chains outside of China. Also there actually aren't that many things made in China that don't have some kind of alternative. Production is moving out of China across all sectors, not because of politics but due to increasing wages.
  - mr_toad 5y ago
    Sanctions don’t work on hardline autocratic governments. If anything, they just double down on their oppression and use the sanctions as an excuse and something to blame all problems on.
- 2xpress 5y ago
  Individual boycotts go together with individual voting for better politicians who will build better policies regarding PRC.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
I don't buy the argument that economic sanctions/boycotts lead to overthrown governments, but I'll assume it does. The result of that strategy would be crippling poverty for hundreds of millions of people, with results likely to last for decades.
- someperson 5y ago
  Preventing a totalitarian government that has destroyed Hong Kong's freedoms, and is actively calling for military take over of Taiwan's democracy needs to be met with firm economic sanctions. The Chinese Communist Party gains its legitimacy from it's economic achievements, so a global push to target that is reasonable. Getting wealthy by trading with the democratic world is a privilege, not a right.
  - 2xpress 5y ago
    +1
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    A big part of the Party's legitimacy is that they succeeded where the Nationalists failed: They kicked out foreigner powers from China and reasserted Chinese sovereignty. Getting HK back is a major achievement for them with the full support of the Chinese public (even for people sympathetic with HK's struggle to maintain its democratic rights). I think this is something overlooked in the West, if not purposely ignored, with Western media continuously trying to paint an image of China vs HK. HK is a Chinese city within China, inhabited by Chinese people. It just happens to have a special administrative status. The issue is the issue of democracy in China, and whatever will happen to that will be achieved by the Chinese people themselves (see Taiwan), not by foreigners with ulterior motives.
    - ginko 5y ago
      As far as I remember it was mainly the Chinese side that framed the HK democracy movement as secessionist.
2xpress 5y ago
I don't know why the parent is getting voted down, not buying PRC is good advice. Cheap slave labor is the main factor that allowed PRC to grow into a superpower. Ironically, they developed using Taiwan as their model (with the Taiwanese corporate helping -- Foxconn). Since the tariffs a lot of goods that used to be made in PRC are now (at least assembled) made in Vietnam. I personally regularly pay more just to avoid PRC goods. And PRC goods only seem like a bargain at first glance. I only buy PRC when there does not appear to be an alternative, but it still feels shameful and dirty. I only wish that the government keeps raising the tariffs on PRC higher and higher. It is truly a shame it was not done immediately post Tienanmen Square massacre.
- sumedh 5y ago
  > Cheap slave labor is the main factor that allowed PRC to grow into a superpower. Developed countries used the same model as well.
karmasimida 5y ago
Trump tried to raise 25% tariffs on all Chinese goods, and that is about the most effective way to implement the boycott with scale that can't be matched. And it didn't work really. China's export to US and the world is at all-time high, and guess who is paying for those tariffs?
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > And it didn't work really. China's export to US and the world is at all-time high, and guess who is paying for those tariffs? Trump had the kernel of the right idea, but the actual goal in his mind was stupid (get a better "deal") and his execution sloppy and haphazard. A better implementation would be to ratchet up tariffs slowly, and send the certain message: "policy has changed, go all in towards adjusting your supply chains now or be fucked."
  - karmasimida 5y ago
    And now the tariffs tool is gone for good. There is little room to raise the tariff again without hurting US itself.
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > And now the tariffs tool is gone for good. > There is little room to raise the tariff again without hurting US itself. How so?
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > A better For what goal?

northwest65 5y ago

Maybe a better way would be to stop selling them food. We still want to buy Apple products, but they need to buy food.

throwawaycities 5y ago
Remember during the pandemic when China threatened to stop selling masks, PPE and IVs? Immediately Trump stopped calling it “The China Virus” and then China “donated” millions of masks to the US for the international PR.
- kova12 5y ago
  we all want to believe that we live in the world which gravitates towards good, rather than some game of thrones. But we all might be suffering from survivor bias. People don't work together well when there are too many of them. I personally won't be surprised if very soon shit finally hits the fan and those who live through it would be happy to merely stay alive
jawkx 5y ago
"Starving the Chinese to own the CCP" and then blamed China for the famine after that, westerner are playing 4d chess man
femto 5y ago
I disagree, in that the problem is the Chinese Communist Party, not the Chinese people. It's also contradictory to counter a bully by being a bully. Having said that: iron ore, not food. As a thought experiment: it would be most effective to target China's main imports: integrated circuits, oil, iron ore, ... [1] ICs are mainly used in exports so limited domestic impact, oil can be had from any number of despotic partners, iron ore on the other hand... Most of China's iron ore comes from Australia, and there is currently no alternative. If Australia refused to sell iron ore to China it would really screw up China's economy [2] (and Australia's): Proof of China's dependence on Australian iron ore is in the current sanctions the CCP is placing on Australia, as payback for Australia not kowtowing to the CCP [3]. The result has been a major loss of face for the CCP, in that it has made Australia's economy more resilient by forcing diversification of its export markets, in the process reducing CCP's influence, simultaneous with Australia's exports to China continuing to break new records [4]. No one is under any illusions that the CCP would dearly like to stop iron ore imports from Australia, but it can't. Eventually the CCP may be able to wean China off Australian iron ore, but chances are it will happen so slowly that Australia will have time to find new markets. Yes, Australia could screw China, as the CCP is trying to do to Australia, but that would only reduce Australia to the same level as the CCP and ruin Australia's goodwill with the Chinese people (the CCP is not China). [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=china%27s+biggest+imports https://www.google.com/search?q=china%27s+biggest+imports [2] https://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/what-would-happen-if-china-stopped-buying-australian-iron-ore/ https://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/what-would-happen-if-ch... [3] https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/if-you-make-china-the-enemy-china-will-be-the-enemy-beijing-s-fresh-threat-to-australia-20201118-p56fqs.html https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/if-you-make-china-the-enem... [4] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-26/australian-economy-coping-well-after-chinese-trade-restrictions/13090436 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-26/australian-economy-co...
- GordonS 5y ago
  > ICs are mainly used in exports so limited domestic impact, Then China would impose tit-for-tat tarrifs - imagine they slapped a 100% tariff on ICs.
2xpress 5y ago
Stop selling food?? That's just evil! It's ok to sell food, and every dollar they spend of food is one less for ballistic missiles.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Stop selling food?? That's just evil! It's also stupid. What did the PRC do in response to US tariffs? Voluntarily stop buying US food. The PRC doesn't need US food, it can buy what it needs elsewhere (e.g. soybeans from Brazil instead of Illinois).

tablespoon 5y ago

> The best way to put pressure on the Chinese Communist Party and help pro-democracy voices in Hong Kong (and the reduce Uygher genocide) is to avoid buying Made in China goods where possible. Decoupling could be helpful on several fronts, but it's not going to happen via individualist boycotts. Those are useless, and just too many things are made in China without realistic alternatives. If it's going to happen, it'll be through increasing tariffs (preferably slowly over time) and other government policy.

someperson 5y ago
Yes, individual boycotts are not the only way. Government policy is certainly required too. Both punitive (increasing tariffs), requiring made outside China sourcing, and also investing in supply chains outside of China. Also there actually aren't that many things made in China that don't have some kind of alternative. Production is moving out of China across all sectors, not because of politics but due to increasing wages.
- mr_toad 5y ago
  Sanctions don’t work on hardline autocratic governments. If anything, they just double down on their oppression and use the sanctions as an excuse and something to blame all problems on.
2xpress 5y ago
Individual boycotts go together with individual voting for better politicians who will build better policies regarding PRC.

boomboomsubban 5y ago

I don't buy the argument that economic sanctions/boycotts lead to overthrown governments, but I'll assume it does. The result of that strategy would be crippling poverty for hundreds of millions of people, with results likely to last for decades.

someperson 5y ago
Preventing a totalitarian government that has destroyed Hong Kong's freedoms, and is actively calling for military take over of Taiwan's democracy needs to be met with firm economic sanctions. The Chinese Communist Party gains its legitimacy from it's economic achievements, so a global push to target that is reasonable. Getting wealthy by trading with the democratic world is a privilege, not a right.
- 2xpress 5y ago
  +1
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  A big part of the Party's legitimacy is that they succeeded where the Nationalists failed: They kicked out foreigner powers from China and reasserted Chinese sovereignty. Getting HK back is a major achievement for them with the full support of the Chinese public (even for people sympathetic with HK's struggle to maintain its democratic rights). I think this is something overlooked in the West, if not purposely ignored, with Western media continuously trying to paint an image of China vs HK. HK is a Chinese city within China, inhabited by Chinese people. It just happens to have a special administrative status. The issue is the issue of democracy in China, and whatever will happen to that will be achieved by the Chinese people themselves (see Taiwan), not by foreigners with ulterior motives.
  - ginko 5y ago
    As far as I remember it was mainly the Chinese side that framed the HK democracy movement as secessionist.

2xpress 5y ago

I don't know why the parent is getting voted down, not buying PRC is good advice. Cheap slave labor is the main factor that allowed PRC to grow into a superpower. Ironically, they developed using Taiwan as their model (with the Taiwanese corporate helping -- Foxconn). Since the tariffs a lot of goods that used to be made in PRC are now (at least assembled) made in Vietnam. I personally regularly pay more just to avoid PRC goods. And PRC goods only seem like a bargain at first glance. I only buy PRC when there does not appear to be an alternative, but it still feels shameful and dirty. I only wish that the government keeps raising the tariffs on PRC higher and higher. It is truly a shame it was not done immediately post Tienanmen Square massacre.

sumedh 5y ago
> Cheap slave labor is the main factor that allowed PRC to grow into a superpower. Developed countries used the same model as well.

karmasimida 5y ago

Trump tried to raise 25% tariffs on all Chinese goods, and that is about the most effective way to implement the boycott with scale that can't be matched. And it didn't work really. China's export to US and the world is at all-time high, and guess who is paying for those tariffs?

tablespoon 5y ago
> And it didn't work really. China's export to US and the world is at all-time high, and guess who is paying for those tariffs? Trump had the kernel of the right idea, but the actual goal in his mind was stupid (get a better "deal") and his execution sloppy and haphazard. A better implementation would be to ratchet up tariffs slowly, and send the certain message: "policy has changed, go all in towards adjusting your supply chains now or be fucked."
- karmasimida 5y ago
  And now the tariffs tool is gone for good. There is little room to raise the tariff again without hurting US itself.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > And now the tariffs tool is gone for good. > There is little room to raise the tariff again without hurting US itself. How so?
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > A better For what goal?