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Conspiracies happen constantly because people conspire to do nefarious things all the time. However nowadays the framework for evaluating those nefarious things

Conspiracies happen constantly because people conspire to do nefarious things all the time. However nowadays the framework for evaluating those nefarious things (conspiracy theories) has been completely negated by those in corporate media conflating it with insanity and baseless, nonsensical accusations. And there's a reason for that, which Snowden touches on. Namely, the world in its current form is largely run by such nefarious schemes. The bad guys won a long time ago. And by taking away the language we might even use to talk about what they did, and the scale of it, they have further insulated their power.

prox 5y ago
He says thhat conspiracy is inherently anti+democratic, so here is the antidote, strengthening democracy. Another great point is in his last paragraph, that conspiracy theories are mostly bottom up events. You have a whole demographic doing conspiracy theorizing instead of talking about what it looks in practice. There just was a president whose whole game was running a circus, everything was about the guy and his idea of The Enemy. Nothing of substance and nothing but misdirection. Another problem is that day to day journalism isn’t epistemological, it’s just reporting, so you just get a flat view of what is happening.
- AlphaDio 5y ago
  Well, I guess if he says they are anti-democratic, the question is solved and settled, and the solution is just easy-peasy! Have you considered that this president could have been himself the target of misdirection? The problem of day-to-day journalism is certainly not epistemology, the problem is that they rely on eyeballs, advertisers, and tribes, and thus tend to tailor their reporting, that might be the reason why everything that happened around that last president seemed like a circus.
  - prox 5y ago
    He was the president, he cannot be the target of misdirection. The last president needed the media in a symbiotic relationship. Something to rile against. In form he spoke badly about MSM, but in practice he needed them just as much to stay relevant and have something to rebel against. Yes, media need the clicks, but that’s portraying it wrongly imo.
- AstralStorm 5y ago
  There is no world democracy though. It's so many representation levels that it devolves into a few elites. Militaries are not democratic either.
- wavepruner 5y ago
  Democracies vote to oppress minorities all the time. Democracy is not the solution.
  - prox 5y ago
    That is a gross simplification isn’t it? While democracy isn’t perfect, it depends a lot how it is implemented. Just like you have badly implemented programs and right ones.
    - wavepruner 5y ago
      No, I think history and present times makes it clear that this is an inherent property of democracy. In democracy without any limitations (like the US constitution), a little over 50% of constituents can do whatever they want to any minority comprising less than 50% of the population. There are plenty of modifications that have been tried, but none of them solve this fundamental problem... ...because when push comes to shove the modifications are ignored. E.g. the US constitution is routinely ignored without consequence for those in power. I don't think any political system humans have invented exists in reality. Our political systems are a veneer over the reality of consensual interaction sprinkled with generous amounts of violence, manipulation, and control tactics that have always been used to maintain power. I would argue that since these control tactics are inherent to human behavior, a focus on prioritizing anyone's ability to defend themselves is the best solution.
  - seppin 5y ago
    > Democracy is not the solution. It is a solution, that is imperfect. If you have something better, now is the time to explain it.
fighterpilot 5y ago
The other reason for that, which he also touches on, is that conspiracies are now tied up in the narrative that undergirds identity, especially political identity. The extent of truth in a conspiracy theory isn't that relevant to the partisan news orgs. Be it systemic racism, lab leak hypothesis, influence of certain lobby groups, etc.
cannabis_sam 5y ago
> Namely, the world in its current form is largely run by such nefarious schemes. The bad guys won a long time ago. I’ve slowly come to the same conclusion, and my first reaction was pretty much hopelessness and despair. But I think it’s important to realize that most people through history, who fought for change, faced similar or worse adversaries. (Absolutely not an endorsement of historical atrocities)

prox 5y ago

He says thhat conspiracy is inherently anti+democratic, so here is the antidote, strengthening democracy. Another great point is in his last paragraph, that conspiracy theories are mostly bottom up events. You have a whole demographic doing conspiracy theorizing instead of talking about what it looks in practice. There just was a president whose whole game was running a circus, everything was about the guy and his idea of The Enemy. Nothing of substance and nothing but misdirection. Another problem is that day to day journalism isn’t epistemological, it’s just reporting, so you just get a flat view of what is happening.

AlphaDio 5y ago
Well, I guess if he says they are anti-democratic, the question is solved and settled, and the solution is just easy-peasy! Have you considered that this president could have been himself the target of misdirection? The problem of day-to-day journalism is certainly not epistemology, the problem is that they rely on eyeballs, advertisers, and tribes, and thus tend to tailor their reporting, that might be the reason why everything that happened around that last president seemed like a circus.
- prox 5y ago
  He was the president, he cannot be the target of misdirection. The last president needed the media in a symbiotic relationship. Something to rile against. In form he spoke badly about MSM, but in practice he needed them just as much to stay relevant and have something to rebel against. Yes, media need the clicks, but that’s portraying it wrongly imo.
AstralStorm 5y ago
There is no world democracy though. It's so many representation levels that it devolves into a few elites. Militaries are not democratic either.
wavepruner 5y ago
Democracies vote to oppress minorities all the time. Democracy is not the solution.
- prox 5y ago
  That is a gross simplification isn’t it? While democracy isn’t perfect, it depends a lot how it is implemented. Just like you have badly implemented programs and right ones.
  - wavepruner 5y ago
    No, I think history and present times makes it clear that this is an inherent property of democracy. In democracy without any limitations (like the US constitution), a little over 50% of constituents can do whatever they want to any minority comprising less than 50% of the population. There are plenty of modifications that have been tried, but none of them solve this fundamental problem... ...because when push comes to shove the modifications are ignored. E.g. the US constitution is routinely ignored without consequence for those in power. I don't think any political system humans have invented exists in reality. Our political systems are a veneer over the reality of consensual interaction sprinkled with generous amounts of violence, manipulation, and control tactics that have always been used to maintain power. I would argue that since these control tactics are inherent to human behavior, a focus on prioritizing anyone's ability to defend themselves is the best solution.
- seppin 5y ago
  > Democracy is not the solution. It is a solution, that is imperfect. If you have something better, now is the time to explain it.

fighterpilot 5y ago

The other reason for that, which he also touches on, is that conspiracies are now tied up in the narrative that undergirds identity, especially political identity. The extent of truth in a conspiracy theory isn't that relevant to the partisan news orgs. Be it systemic racism, lab leak hypothesis, influence of certain lobby groups, etc.

cannabis_sam 5y ago

> Namely, the world in its current form is largely run by such nefarious schemes. The bad guys won a long time ago. I’ve slowly come to the same conclusion, and my first reaction was pretty much hopelessness and despair. But I think it’s important to realize that most people through history, who fought for change, faced similar or worse adversaries. (Absolutely not an endorsement of historical atrocities)