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> The vaccines are safe. This is true by medicinal standards, but it's also a sleight-of-hand. The AstraZeneca vaccine had a rare side-effect that was right on

> The vaccines are safe. This is true by medicinal standards, but it's also a sleight-of-hand. The AstraZeneca vaccine had a rare side-effect that was right on track to kill more young women in Europe than the virus itself. That's why it was banned. By that standard, I could argue the viral infection is also safe - for young women at least.

mrj 5y ago
That was caught and the shots stopped. Millions of people have had the other vaccines with no similar bad news. If there was any kind of wide-spread problem, it would have been loudly seen by now and those vaccines would have also been pulled. There has not been. The vaccines (being administered now) are safe.
- incrudible 5y ago
  > If there was any kind of wide-spread problem, it would have been loudly seen by now and those vaccines would have also been pulled. There has not been. Yes, if it was a wide-spread problem. The side-effect that killed AstraZeneca wasn't widespread, it was extremely rare, and it was caught because it was such an unlikely combination of symptoms. Yet, this extremely rare side-effect was enough to make the vaccine more dangerous than the virus - to young women at least. In a year, when all the facts are collected and processed, we'll see how much trouble the Pfizer vaccine really caused in terms of Myocarditis. Then we'll scramble to make up numbers on how many infections must've been prevented by the vaccine to make it all worthwhile.
  - mrj 5y ago
    In most cases it goes away on it's own or people don't even know they got it.. That doesn't seem all that scary.
    - incrudible 5y ago
      > In most cases it goes away on it's own or people don't even know they got it.. That doesn't seem all that scary. ...like COVID in young people? It's true that Myocarditis often goes unnoticed and undiagnosed. That's what makes it dangerous. It's a leading cause of cardiac arrest in young people. If you actually do get diagnosed with Myocarditis, it's not necessarily a mild case. That's what makes me suspect the cases being reported now are just the tip of the ice berg.
munk-a 5y ago
Just to clarify - that is false. It is generally advisable to get Moderna/Pfizer if they're available and you're a young woman but the chance of mortal thrombosis is around 5 per one million. The EU recommends getting AZ over not receiving a vaccine if that is the only option available to you[1] - though at this point there should be a sufficient supply of alternatives. 1. https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-benefits-still-outweigh-risks-despite-possible-link-rare-blood-clots https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/covid-19-vaccine-astrazene...
- incrudible 5y ago
  > Just to clarify - that is false. It isn't false, though the blanket "it was banned" statement lacks context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford%E2%80%93AstraZeneca_COVID-19_vaccine#Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford%E2%80%93AstraZeneca_COV... > It is generally advisable to get Moderna/Pfizer if they're available and you're a young woman but the chance of mortal thrombosis is around 5 per one million. No, the risk for anyone to develop a lethal thrombosis is roughly 5 per million. The chances are much higher for younger women, to the point where it exceeds the risk to die of COVID.
  - Pyramus 5y ago
    Again, that is false. It's not even close, for women age 20-29 the risk of fatal thrombosis is 1:250k, while Covid is somewhere around 1:25k [1]. That's a whole order of magnitude. The risk/benefit ratio of AZ vaccine is only poor when the risk of exposure is very low [2]. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2918-0/figures/2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2918-0/figures/2 [2] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/976877/CovidStats_07-04-21-final.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
    - incrudible 5y ago
      > It's not even close, for women age 20-29 the risk of fatal thrombosis is 1:250k I have yet to find a source that gives the risk for that cohort. > ...while Covid is somewhere around 1:25k Even if it's an order of magnitude higher, the risk of a actually getting a PCR-confirmed infection is an order of magnitude lower. Again, Germany: 28 deaths of women in that age group over the course of the pandemic[1], including all potential co-morbidities that may tilt the risk in favor of vaccination. > The risk/benefit ratio of AZ vaccine is only poor when the risk of exposure is very low. This is comparing "ICU admissions" against "Serious harms due to the vaccine". Utter nonsense. Why not compare mortality? Probably because it wouldn't look too good... [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105512/coronavirus-covid-19-deaths-by-gender-germany/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105512/coronavirus-covi...

mrj 5y ago

That was caught and the shots stopped. Millions of people have had the other vaccines with no similar bad news. If there was any kind of wide-spread problem, it would have been loudly seen by now and those vaccines would have also been pulled. There has not been. The vaccines (being administered now) are safe.

incrudible 5y ago
> If there was any kind of wide-spread problem, it would have been loudly seen by now and those vaccines would have also been pulled. There has not been. Yes, if it was a wide-spread problem. The side-effect that killed AstraZeneca wasn't widespread, it was extremely rare, and it was caught because it was such an unlikely combination of symptoms. Yet, this extremely rare side-effect was enough to make the vaccine more dangerous than the virus - to young women at least. In a year, when all the facts are collected and processed, we'll see how much trouble the Pfizer vaccine really caused in terms of Myocarditis. Then we'll scramble to make up numbers on how many infections must've been prevented by the vaccine to make it all worthwhile.
- mrj 5y ago
  In most cases it goes away on it's own or people don't even know they got it.. That doesn't seem all that scary.
  - incrudible 5y ago
    > In most cases it goes away on it's own or people don't even know they got it.. That doesn't seem all that scary. ...like COVID in young people? It's true that Myocarditis often goes unnoticed and undiagnosed. That's what makes it dangerous. It's a leading cause of cardiac arrest in young people. If you actually do get diagnosed with Myocarditis, it's not necessarily a mild case. That's what makes me suspect the cases being reported now are just the tip of the ice berg.

munk-a 5y ago

Just to clarify - that is false. It is generally advisable to get Moderna/Pfizer if they're available and you're a young woman but the chance of mortal thrombosis is around 5 per one million. The EU recommends getting AZ over not receiving a vaccine if that is the only option available to you[1] - though at this point there should be a sufficient supply of alternatives. 1. https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-benefits-still-outweigh-risks-despite-possible-link-rare-blood-clots https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/covid-19-vaccine-astrazene...

incrudible 5y ago
> Just to clarify - that is false. It isn't false, though the blanket "it was banned" statement lacks context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford%E2%80%93AstraZeneca_COVID-19_vaccine#Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford%E2%80%93AstraZeneca_COV... > It is generally advisable to get Moderna/Pfizer if they're available and you're a young woman but the chance of mortal thrombosis is around 5 per one million. No, the risk for anyone to develop a lethal thrombosis is roughly 5 per million. The chances are much higher for younger women, to the point where it exceeds the risk to die of COVID.
- Pyramus 5y ago
  Again, that is false. It's not even close, for women age 20-29 the risk of fatal thrombosis is 1:250k, while Covid is somewhere around 1:25k [1]. That's a whole order of magnitude. The risk/benefit ratio of AZ vaccine is only poor when the risk of exposure is very low [2]. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2918-0/figures/2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2918-0/figures/2 [2] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/976877/CovidStats_07-04-21-final.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
  - incrudible 5y ago
    > It's not even close, for women age 20-29 the risk of fatal thrombosis is 1:250k I have yet to find a source that gives the risk for that cohort. > ...while Covid is somewhere around 1:25k Even if it's an order of magnitude higher, the risk of a actually getting a PCR-confirmed infection is an order of magnitude lower. Again, Germany: 28 deaths of women in that age group over the course of the pandemic[1], including all potential co-morbidities that may tilt the risk in favor of vaccination. > The risk/benefit ratio of AZ vaccine is only poor when the risk of exposure is very low. This is comparing "ICU admissions" against "Serious harms due to the vaccine". Utter nonsense. Why not compare mortality? Probably because it wouldn't look too good... [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105512/coronavirus-covid-19-deaths-by-gender-germany/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105512/coronavirus-covi...