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Your vaccination status impacts the people around you. There are folks who cannot be vaccinated (or who are not able to develop immunity from the vaccine). It

by fra 5y ago

Your vaccination status impacts the people around you. There are folks who cannot be vaccinated (or who are not able to develop immunity from the vaccine). It is dangerous for them to be around unvaccinated people. So no, it is not just up to the individual to do what is best for them.

jaywalk 5y ago
My whole point is that current policies are conflating immunity with vaccination, when the science says that immunity from a past infection is equivalent to immunity from vaccination. If I can provide a past positive Covid test or a positive antibody test, that is just as good as a record of being vaccinated. There is no scientific evidence to point to for believing otherwise.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > a past positive Covid test or a positive antibody test, that is just as good as a record of being vaccinated Immunity from non-symptomatic infection differs wildly from symptomatic infection. It's also less flexible with new variants. I agree that there should be a way to document this. But there are still benefits to keeping certain spaces for the vaccinated only, to allow for denser mixing et cetera.
  - wait_a_minute 5y ago
    There should not and will not be a centralized way to document any such thing in the USA, and we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only. We will not restrict entry into normalcy on the basis of status, be it vaccination or antibody status. Florida and other states have been open for a long time and the numbers have been consistently improving same as anywhere else, without any need for documentation or such mandates lol.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only This is a regional thing. Most large events in New York have been mandating and verifying vaccination. Most major offices are tracking vaccination status--you're not barred, but you need to wear a mask if you aren't. (Though some are refusing the unvaccinated.) In dense, urban environments this is sort of necessary. In Jackson, Wyoming it's not.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - wait_a_minute 5y ago
        Sounds like New York will continue to lose population and significant tax revenue, then, by giving in to totalitarian ideas.
      - jaywalk 5y ago
        Large events outside of New York have not had any such vaccine mandates, and have not led to any outbreaks. By the numbers, New York has handled the pandemic worse than any state in the US. I'm not sure we should be holding up any of the measures they've taken or are currently taking as any sort of holy grail.
        JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        There is a clear cultural schism on this. When in Arizona, I went to a rodeo that wouldn’t dare check vaccination after a museum fundraiser that required it but didn’t verify. As someone who would like to go to both types of events, a single document would be helpful. If others prefer to constrain themselves, that’s fine. We are discussing privileges, not rights.
        jaywalk 5y ago
        I'm confused. You went from talking about events in NY that verify vaccination to events that do not. My point is that the draconian verifications that you talk about in NY have not been proven to increase safety in any meaningful way. If we're going to create two separate classes of people, one of which does not enjoy the same freedoms and abilities as the other, I think there needs to be actual data to back it up instead of it just "feeling like" it's the safer thing to do.
rajin444 5y ago
Couldn't you say the same for people who choose to be obese? Not only are they consuming more resources, but they're weakening their immune systems, thus furthering the likelihood they'll spread covid and other diseases. I'm not saying this is a world I want to live in, but how do you decide where to draw the line?
- wait_a_minute 5y ago
  They will not be logically consistent, and thankfully. Because if they were, we'd be going towards a really fucked up world. Generally you're right though. On their logic if pushed to its conclusion, all the totalitarianism in the world could be justified if it saves one person from dying of the flu or from dying of obesity.
- fra 5y ago
  Are you saying it's as easy to lose weight as it is getting vaccinated? Obesity is a disease.
  - rajin444 5y ago
    It's easier. For the majority of people, all you need to do is eat less. If you argument is that obese people do not have the ability to eat less, that is a much different discussion (with some implications I don't think many are comfortable with).

by fra 5y ago

jaywalk 5y ago

My whole point is that current policies are conflating immunity with vaccination, when the science says that immunity from a past infection is equivalent to immunity from vaccination. If I can provide a past positive Covid test or a positive antibody test, that is just as good as a record of being vaccinated. There is no scientific evidence to point to for believing otherwise.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> a past positive Covid test or a positive antibody test, that is just as good as a record of being vaccinated Immunity from non-symptomatic infection differs wildly from symptomatic infection. It's also less flexible with new variants. I agree that there should be a way to document this. But there are still benefits to keeping certain spaces for the vaccinated only, to allow for denser mixing et cetera.
- wait_a_minute 5y ago
  There should not and will not be a centralized way to document any such thing in the USA, and we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only. We will not restrict entry into normalcy on the basis of status, be it vaccination or antibody status. Florida and other states have been open for a long time and the numbers have been consistently improving same as anywhere else, without any need for documentation or such mandates lol.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only This is a regional thing. Most large events in New York have been mandating and verifying vaccination. Most major offices are tracking vaccination status--you're not barred, but you need to wear a mask if you aren't. (Though some are refusing the unvaccinated.) In dense, urban environments this is sort of necessary. In Jackson, Wyoming it's not.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - wait_a_minute 5y ago
      Sounds like New York will continue to lose population and significant tax revenue, then, by giving in to totalitarian ideas.
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      Large events outside of New York have not had any such vaccine mandates, and have not led to any outbreaks. By the numbers, New York has handled the pandemic worse than any state in the US. I'm not sure we should be holding up any of the measures they've taken or are currently taking as any sort of holy grail.
      - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        There is a clear cultural schism on this. When in Arizona, I went to a rodeo that wouldn’t dare check vaccination after a museum fundraiser that required it but didn’t verify. As someone who would like to go to both types of events, a single document would be helpful. If others prefer to constrain themselves, that’s fine. We are discussing privileges, not rights.
        jaywalk 5y ago
        I'm confused. You went from talking about events in NY that verify vaccination to events that do not. My point is that the draconian verifications that you talk about in NY have not been proven to increase safety in any meaningful way. If we're going to create two separate classes of people, one of which does not enjoy the same freedoms and abilities as the other, I think there needs to be actual data to back it up instead of it just "feeling like" it's the safer thing to do.

rajin444 5y ago

Couldn't you say the same for people who choose to be obese? Not only are they consuming more resources, but they're weakening their immune systems, thus furthering the likelihood they'll spread covid and other diseases. I'm not saying this is a world I want to live in, but how do you decide where to draw the line?

wait_a_minute 5y ago
They will not be logically consistent, and thankfully. Because if they were, we'd be going towards a really fucked up world. Generally you're right though. On their logic if pushed to its conclusion, all the totalitarianism in the world could be justified if it saves one person from dying of the flu or from dying of obesity.
fra 5y ago
Are you saying it's as easy to lose weight as it is getting vaccinated? Obesity is a disease.
- rajin444 5y ago
  It's easier. For the majority of people, all you need to do is eat less. If you argument is that obese people do not have the ability to eat less, that is a much different discussion (with some implications I don't think many are comfortable with).