13 ms·

Starting in 2023, Windows 11 will require new laptops to have a front webcam

39 points by rolph 5y ago

mhoad 5y ago
WTAF? Was this supposed to be some kind of security thing? This misreads the room so badly on where people are at in 2021 when it comes to the idea of tech companies and consumer privacy.
- oarsinsync 5y ago
  > This misreads the room so badly on where people are at in 2021 when it comes to the idea of tech companies and consumer privacy. (Some) Tech people, politicians, and politicos, sure. The average person still uses Facebook, Instagram, Whatsapp, Twitter, Google services, and/or believes Apple's marketing on respecting user privacy. Also, this is 2 years out. Either there will be major changes between now and then which will result in a change to this decision, or there wont. I wouldn't put my money on the former.
  - throwntoday 5y ago
    What part of Apple's privacy policy is unbelievable?
  - dagw 5y ago
    I know several pretty 'average' computer users with a piece of tape in front of their laptop camera.
- endemic 5y ago
  The article is light on details, but of course there's always this: > For those concerned with privacy, this means a trip to the office supply store to grab more tape with which to cover up the pesky little lenses.
  - Lammy 5y ago
    Good luck with that https://old.reddit.com/r/blackmagicfuckery/comments/kaxn0j/so_it_turns_out_my_laptop_can_see_through_plastic/ https://old.reddit.com/r/blackmagicfuckery/comments/kaxn0j/s... Also good luck taping up the microphone.
    - xg15 5y ago
      Even if not, if the camera is required for login/screen unlock, have fun removing and reapplying that tape several dozen times a day.
      - nailer 5y ago
        It's not. You can use a PIN or a password.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      Isn't the remote made out of IR-transparent plastic? The privacy shields you tape onto a webcam should be IR-opaque. (Or they should be redesigned). I believe best practice to disable a microphone is superglue over the membrane.
  - lb1lf 5y ago
    -I am surprised not more vendors of laptops have done like Lenovo does (at least on the X1 series) - there's a plastic slider which goes over the lens, showing a bright orange dot when it has disabled the camera. Seems so cheap, simple and useful that there probably is a patent keeping others from doing it. Sigh.
- winthrowe 5y ago
  This looks like part of their push to passwordless. Decent camera plus TPM means that FaceID style unphishable FIDO2 credentials can become default moving forward.
  - frombody 5y ago
    It also means that you can't use computers running Windows 11 inside secure areas.
    - oarsinsync 5y ago
      > It also means that you can't use computers running Windows 11 inside secure areas. It means you can't use computers running retail editions of Windows 11 inside secure areas. These kinds of requirements will absolutely not be mandatory under enterprise / volume licensing.
  - LorenPechtel 5y ago
    And how do you handle letting someone else use your machine?
    - contravariant 5y ago
      That's not really the best argument in favor of passwords.
    - petree 5y ago
      You install Linux and tell Microsoft to fuck off with their stupid ideas.
      - craftinator 5y ago
        So nice to be beaten to the chase. It's almost eerie reading a sentence that is nearly verbatim to what just went through my head.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
Reporting seems hyperbolic. What happens if your hardware doesn't have a camera? OS won't load or boot?
- anotherman554 5y ago
  Presumably it's saying OEMs will not be allowed to sell laptops with copies of windows preinstalled unless the laptop has a camera.
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
This just means that if these laptops are going to have Windows 11, they need to have a camera. It's not that the OS will not work without it. It's just MS saying, "You need a camera on your laptop." It's no different than all Macbooks having a camera, except Microsoft is dictating the OEM market needs to adhere to that standard.
- aejnsn 5y ago
  You’re exactly right in your statement. But of all the experiences they could control, the most important is a webcam? That webcam is placed on an OS known for intrusive advertising and data collection, with OEMs known for pushing pre-installed software that’s invasive, if not full-blown malware. You’re exactly right about the facts. The problem is the perception of the theme here.
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
    I'm fairly certain that the reason for it has more to do with standardizing laptops to always have webcams and that it's expected now that work from home is a more commonly accepted thing. Also every phone has a camera. It's not like this is a new concept in hardware requirements. Requiring cameras to laptops sounds like a better feature than having to waste time finding out "does it have a camera." Especially ensuring they have to be hi-res. Phones have had cameras forever. I don't get how the expectation that a laptop should not have a camera. It's not like it's any more invasive than the geolocation data google siphons constantly.
  - bluerival 5y ago
    This is most certainly a security initiative to standardise biometrics (Windows Hello). Windows wants everyone to use their “FaceID” because it’s more secure.
    - Arrath 5y ago
      I'll believe that biometric security measures are more secure when they are fully protected under the Fifth Amendment, rather than by a few shaky court cases that could be overturned. https://slate.com/technology/2019/01/fifth-amendment-biometrics-fingerprint-search-warrant-ruling.html https://slate.com/technology/2019/01/fifth-amendment-biometr... https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/01/14/feds-cant-force-you-to-unlock-your-iphone-with-finger-or-face-judge-rules/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/01/14/feds-...
rvz 5y ago
Oh dear. On top of that, the new Windows 11 OEM laptops will probably come with Windows 11 Home pre-installed and requires a Microsoft Account, which not only I warned against two years ago [0], but is an instant no deal. Comes to no surprise as to how Microsoft really wants to collect everything about you. Even if it you get a laptop with a Pro version installed, they will still make it harder for you to avoid a Microsoft account. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21137699 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21137699
squarefoot 5y ago
Thank you, Microsoft! Thousands, potentially millions, of users will be motivated to migrate to other OSes, also thanks to Windows 11 insane hardware requirements they will find tons of essentially free hardware that will run their new OS with no issues.
- kungito 5y ago
  Sometimes I laugh at arguments like this, sometimes I get pissed of. You are seriously disconnected from reality if you think this will change anything except all laptops having a front webcam. I haven't seen one without it ever anyways
  - hans-moleman 5y ago
    This website is an echo chamber many times more niche than other social websites. It’s mainly tech nerds with very similar beliefs and backgrounds. Opinons here, as with most websites, should be taken with a grain of salt.
  - squarefoot 5y ago
    There are some realities I may have been connected in the past, in which a laptop with a camera cannot enter if it is yours, and won't have a camera at all if it's from the employer. The point however was Microsoft imposing unnecessary hardware requirements, and my comment stands since from a Linux (BSD, whatever) point of view, lots of Windows users ditching their perfectly good few years old PC means a huge load of good hardware to be taken almost for free since our demand would never match the huge offer. Regarding messing with hardware requirements, I seem to recall Microsoft did a similar thing when they dictated that netbooks up to a certain size could not have more than this CPU and that amount of RAM to be eligible for receiving discounted OEM XP copies; it was called ULCPC or something like that. In that case they didn't set the minimum bar, but the maximum one. Which of course also produced tons of garbage since netbooks too slow or non upgradeable over 1 Gig RAM became hard to use with Linux too.
    - skinnymuch 5y ago
krylon 5y ago
I own 7 laptops, and with the exception of a ~1995 ThinkPad, they all have webcams builtin. None of these will ever run Windows 11 (or any other version), but of all the things I have heard so far about Windows 11, this is relatively low on my outrage list. (Okay, strictly speaking, the ancient ThinkPad runs Windows 95, but I don't actually use it, I just keep it because I like old hardware.)
lp0_on_fire 5y ago
I suppose the next logical step is to not allow a user to log in unless the camera is operative and can detect a face.
president 5y ago
So much speculation in this thread but I haven't heard anyone ask why Microsoft is requiring this. The article as well as the linked Microsoft specification document does not say. I'm very curious as to why.
- rolph 5y ago
  this would be the first logical step to promote wide compatibility with hello, and other facial recognition functions
randomhodler84 5y ago
Hahaha nope nope nope. I gave up at windows 7. Windows 8 sucked and Windows 10 was a spyware OS. Now they are not even hiding it!!! Beware of consumer software, operating systems and hardware. By Jove, it’s like someone warned us about this 30+ years ago.

39 points by rolph 5y ago

WTAF? Was this supposed to be some kind of security thing? This misreads the room so badly on where people are at in 2021 when it comes to the idea of tech companies and consumer privacy.

oarsinsync 5y ago
> This misreads the room so badly on where people are at in 2021 when it comes to the idea of tech companies and consumer privacy. (Some) Tech people, politicians, and politicos, sure. The average person still uses Facebook, Instagram, Whatsapp, Twitter, Google services, and/or believes Apple's marketing on respecting user privacy. Also, this is 2 years out. Either there will be major changes between now and then which will result in a change to this decision, or there wont. I wouldn't put my money on the former.
- throwntoday 5y ago
  What part of Apple's privacy policy is unbelievable?
- dagw 5y ago
  I know several pretty 'average' computer users with a piece of tape in front of their laptop camera.
endemic 5y ago
The article is light on details, but of course there's always this: > For those concerned with privacy, this means a trip to the office supply store to grab more tape with which to cover up the pesky little lenses.
- Lammy 5y ago
  Good luck with that https://old.reddit.com/r/blackmagicfuckery/comments/kaxn0j/so_it_turns_out_my_laptop_can_see_through_plastic/ https://old.reddit.com/r/blackmagicfuckery/comments/kaxn0j/s... Also good luck taping up the microphone.
  - xg15 5y ago
    Even if not, if the camera is required for login/screen unlock, have fun removing and reapplying that tape several dozen times a day.
    - nailer 5y ago
      It's not. You can use a PIN or a password.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    Isn't the remote made out of IR-transparent plastic? The privacy shields you tape onto a webcam should be IR-opaque. (Or they should be redesigned). I believe best practice to disable a microphone is superglue over the membrane.
- lb1lf 5y ago
  -I am surprised not more vendors of laptops have done like Lenovo does (at least on the X1 series) - there's a plastic slider which goes over the lens, showing a bright orange dot when it has disabled the camera. Seems so cheap, simple and useful that there probably is a patent keeping others from doing it. Sigh.
winthrowe 5y ago
This looks like part of their push to passwordless. Decent camera plus TPM means that FaceID style unphishable FIDO2 credentials can become default moving forward.
- frombody 5y ago
  It also means that you can't use computers running Windows 11 inside secure areas.
  - oarsinsync 5y ago
    > It also means that you can't use computers running Windows 11 inside secure areas. It means you can't use computers running retail editions of Windows 11 inside secure areas. These kinds of requirements will absolutely not be mandatory under enterprise / volume licensing.
- LorenPechtel 5y ago
  And how do you handle letting someone else use your machine?
  - contravariant 5y ago
    That's not really the best argument in favor of passwords.
  - petree 5y ago
    You install Linux and tell Microsoft to fuck off with their stupid ideas.
    - craftinator 5y ago
      So nice to be beaten to the chase. It's almost eerie reading a sentence that is nearly verbatim to what just went through my head.

s1artibartfast 5y ago

Reporting seems hyperbolic. What happens if your hardware doesn't have a camera? OS won't load or boot?

anotherman554 5y ago
Presumably it's saying OEMs will not be allowed to sell laptops with copies of windows preinstalled unless the laptop has a camera.

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago

This just means that if these laptops are going to have Windows 11, they need to have a camera. It's not that the OS will not work without it. It's just MS saying, "You need a camera on your laptop." It's no different than all Macbooks having a camera, except Microsoft is dictating the OEM market needs to adhere to that standard.

aejnsn 5y ago
You’re exactly right in your statement. But of all the experiences they could control, the most important is a webcam? That webcam is placed on an OS known for intrusive advertising and data collection, with OEMs known for pushing pre-installed software that’s invasive, if not full-blown malware. You’re exactly right about the facts. The problem is the perception of the theme here.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  I'm fairly certain that the reason for it has more to do with standardizing laptops to always have webcams and that it's expected now that work from home is a more commonly accepted thing. Also every phone has a camera. It's not like this is a new concept in hardware requirements. Requiring cameras to laptops sounds like a better feature than having to waste time finding out "does it have a camera." Especially ensuring they have to be hi-res. Phones have had cameras forever. I don't get how the expectation that a laptop should not have a camera. It's not like it's any more invasive than the geolocation data google siphons constantly.
- bluerival 5y ago
  This is most certainly a security initiative to standardise biometrics (Windows Hello). Windows wants everyone to use their “FaceID” because it’s more secure.
  - Arrath 5y ago
    I'll believe that biometric security measures are more secure when they are fully protected under the Fifth Amendment, rather than by a few shaky court cases that could be overturned. https://slate.com/technology/2019/01/fifth-amendment-biometrics-fingerprint-search-warrant-ruling.html https://slate.com/technology/2019/01/fifth-amendment-biometr... https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/01/14/feds-cant-force-you-to-unlock-your-iphone-with-finger-or-face-judge-rules/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2019/01/14/feds-...

rvz 5y ago

Oh dear. On top of that, the new Windows 11 OEM laptops will probably come with Windows 11 Home pre-installed and requires a Microsoft Account, which not only I warned against two years ago [0], but is an instant no deal. Comes to no surprise as to how Microsoft really wants to collect everything about you. Even if it you get a laptop with a Pro version installed, they will still make it harder for you to avoid a Microsoft account. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21137699 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21137699

squarefoot 5y ago

Thank you, Microsoft! Thousands, potentially millions, of users will be motivated to migrate to other OSes, also thanks to Windows 11 insane hardware requirements they will find tons of essentially free hardware that will run their new OS with no issues.

kungito 5y ago
Sometimes I laugh at arguments like this, sometimes I get pissed of. You are seriously disconnected from reality if you think this will change anything except all laptops having a front webcam. I haven't seen one without it ever anyways
- hans-moleman 5y ago
  This website is an echo chamber many times more niche than other social websites. It’s mainly tech nerds with very similar beliefs and backgrounds. Opinons here, as with most websites, should be taken with a grain of salt.
- squarefoot 5y ago
  There are some realities I may have been connected in the past, in which a laptop with a camera cannot enter if it is yours, and won't have a camera at all if it's from the employer. The point however was Microsoft imposing unnecessary hardware requirements, and my comment stands since from a Linux (BSD, whatever) point of view, lots of Windows users ditching their perfectly good few years old PC means a huge load of good hardware to be taken almost for free since our demand would never match the huge offer. Regarding messing with hardware requirements, I seem to recall Microsoft did a similar thing when they dictated that netbooks up to a certain size could not have more than this CPU and that amount of RAM to be eligible for receiving discounted OEM XP copies; it was called ULCPC or something like that. In that case they didn't set the minimum bar, but the maximum one. Which of course also produced tons of garbage since netbooks too slow or non upgradeable over 1 Gig RAM became hard to use with Linux too.
  - skinnymuch 5y ago

krylon 5y ago

I own 7 laptops, and with the exception of a ~1995 ThinkPad, they all have webcams builtin. None of these will ever run Windows 11 (or any other version), but of all the things I have heard so far about Windows 11, this is relatively low on my outrage list. (Okay, strictly speaking, the ancient ThinkPad runs Windows 95, but I don't actually use it, I just keep it because I like old hardware.)

lp0_on_fire 5y ago

I suppose the next logical step is to not allow a user to log in unless the camera is operative and can detect a face.

president 5y ago

So much speculation in this thread but I haven't heard anyone ask why Microsoft is requiring this. The article as well as the linked Microsoft specification document does not say. I'm very curious as to why.

rolph 5y ago
this would be the first logical step to promote wide compatibility with hello, and other facial recognition functions

randomhodler84 5y ago

Hahaha nope nope nope. I gave up at windows 7. Windows 8 sucked and Windows 10 was a spyware OS. Now they are not even hiding it!!! Beware of consumer software, operating systems and hardware. By Jove, it’s like someone warned us about this 30+ years ago.