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This is what is so miserable about the GPL progression. We went from GPLv2 (preserving everyone's rights to use code) to GPLv3 (you have to give up your encrypt

This is what is so miserable about the GPL progression. We went from GPLv2 (preserving everyone's rights to use code) to GPLv3 (you have to give up your encryption keys) - I think we've lost the GPL as a place where we could solve / answer these types of questions which are good ones - GPL just tanked a lot of trust in it with the (A)GPLv3 stuff especially around prohibiting other developers from specific uses of the code (which is diametrically different from earlier versions which preserved rights).

gspr 5y ago
Think what you will of GPLv3, but lies help no one. Of course it doesn't require you to give up your encryption keys.
- slownews45 5y ago
  Under GPLv2 I could make a device with GPLv2 software and maintain root of trust control of that device if I wanted (ie, do an anti-theft activation lock process, do a lease ownership option of $200/month vs $10K to buy etc). Think what you will, but your lies about the GPLv3 can easily be tested. Can you point me to some GPLv3 software in the Apple tech stack? We actually already know the answer. Apple had to drop Samba (they were a MAJOR end user use of Samba) because of GPLv3 I think they also moved away from GCC for LLVM. In fact - they've probably purged at least 15 packages I'm aware of and I'm aware of NO GPLv3 packages being included. Not sure what their App Store story is - but I wouldn't be surprised if they were careful there too. Oh - this is all lies and apple's lawyers are wrong? Come one - I'm aware of many other companies that absolutely will not ship GPLv3 software for this reason. In fact, by 2011 even it was clear that GPLv3 is not really workable in a lot of contexts and alternatives like MIT became more popular. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0s9jg93,%2Fm%2F04vpm https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%... Apple geared up to fight DOJ over maintaining root control of devices (San Bernadino case). Even Ubuntu has had to deal with this - SFLC made it clear that if some distributor messed things up ubuntu would have to release their keys, which is why they ended up with a MICROSOFT (!) solution. "Ubuntu wishes to ensure that users can boot any operating system they like and run any software they want. Their concern is that the GPLv3 makes provisions by which the FSF could, in this case as the owner of GRUB2, deem that a machine that won't let them replace GRUB2 with something else is in violation of the GPLv3. At that point, they can demand that Ubuntu surrender its encryption keys used to provide secure bootloader verification--which then allows anyone to sign any bootloader they want, thus negating any security features you could leverage out of the bootloader (for example, intentionally instructing it to boot only signed code--keeping the chain trusted, rather than booting a foreign OS as is the option)." - commentator on this topic. It's just interesting to me that rather than any substance the folks arguing for GPLv3 reach for name calling type responses.
  - easton 5y ago
    That's why Apple's SMB implementation stinks! Finally, there's a reason for it, I thought they had just started before Samba was mature or something.
    - slownews45 5y ago
      Yeah, it was a bit of a big bummer! Apple used to also interoperate wonderfully if you were using Samba SERVER side too because - well, they were using Samba client side. Those days were fantastic frankly. You would run Samba server side (on Linux), then Mac client side - and still have your windows machines kind of on -network (for accounting etc) too. But the Samba folks are (or were) VERY hard core GPLv3 folks - so writing was on the wall. GPLv3 shifted things really from preserving developer freedom for OTHERs to do what they wanted with the code, to requiring YOU to do stuff in various ways which was a big shift. I'd assumed that (under GPLv2) there would be natural convergences, but GPLv3 really blew that apart and we've had a bit of a license fracturing relatively. AGPLv3 has also been a bit weaponized to do a sort of fake open source where you can only really use the software if you pay for a commercial license.
      - lukeh 5y ago
        The macOS CIFS client was from BSD, not from Samba.
        easton 5y ago
        As of Darwin 8.0.1 (so Tiger?) smbclient(1)'s man page was saying it was a component of Samba. I think some BSDs used Samba.
        slownews45 5y ago
        BSD's have also taken a pretty strong stance against GPLv3 - again for violating their principles on freedom. I can't dig it up right now but someone can probably find it. But the BSD's used samba for a while as well.
  - 5y ago
goodpoint 5y ago
These claims are absurd. AGPL and GPLv3 carry on the same mission of GPLv2 to protect authors and end users from proprietization, patent trolling and freeloading. This is why SaaS/Cloud companies dislike them and fuel FUD campaigns.

gspr 5y ago

Think what you will of GPLv3, but lies help no one. Of course it doesn't require you to give up your encryption keys.

slownews45 5y ago
Under GPLv2 I could make a device with GPLv2 software and maintain root of trust control of that device if I wanted (ie, do an anti-theft activation lock process, do a lease ownership option of $200/month vs $10K to buy etc). Think what you will, but your lies about the GPLv3 can easily be tested. Can you point me to some GPLv3 software in the Apple tech stack? We actually already know the answer. Apple had to drop Samba (they were a MAJOR end user use of Samba) because of GPLv3 I think they also moved away from GCC for LLVM. In fact - they've probably purged at least 15 packages I'm aware of and I'm aware of NO GPLv3 packages being included. Not sure what their App Store story is - but I wouldn't be surprised if they were careful there too. Oh - this is all lies and apple's lawyers are wrong? Come one - I'm aware of many other companies that absolutely will not ship GPLv3 software for this reason. In fact, by 2011 even it was clear that GPLv3 is not really workable in a lot of contexts and alternatives like MIT became more popular. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%2Fm%2F0s9jg93,%2Fm%2F04vpm https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%... Apple geared up to fight DOJ over maintaining root control of devices (San Bernadino case). Even Ubuntu has had to deal with this - SFLC made it clear that if some distributor messed things up ubuntu would have to release their keys, which is why they ended up with a MICROSOFT (!) solution. "Ubuntu wishes to ensure that users can boot any operating system they like and run any software they want. Their concern is that the GPLv3 makes provisions by which the FSF could, in this case as the owner of GRUB2, deem that a machine that won't let them replace GRUB2 with something else is in violation of the GPLv3. At that point, they can demand that Ubuntu surrender its encryption keys used to provide secure bootloader verification--which then allows anyone to sign any bootloader they want, thus negating any security features you could leverage out of the bootloader (for example, intentionally instructing it to boot only signed code--keeping the chain trusted, rather than booting a foreign OS as is the option)." - commentator on this topic. It's just interesting to me that rather than any substance the folks arguing for GPLv3 reach for name calling type responses.
- easton 5y ago
  That's why Apple's SMB implementation stinks! Finally, there's a reason for it, I thought they had just started before Samba was mature or something.
  - slownews45 5y ago
    Yeah, it was a bit of a big bummer! Apple used to also interoperate wonderfully if you were using Samba SERVER side too because - well, they were using Samba client side. Those days were fantastic frankly. You would run Samba server side (on Linux), then Mac client side - and still have your windows machines kind of on -network (for accounting etc) too. But the Samba folks are (or were) VERY hard core GPLv3 folks - so writing was on the wall. GPLv3 shifted things really from preserving developer freedom for OTHERs to do what they wanted with the code, to requiring YOU to do stuff in various ways which was a big shift. I'd assumed that (under GPLv2) there would be natural convergences, but GPLv3 really blew that apart and we've had a bit of a license fracturing relatively. AGPLv3 has also been a bit weaponized to do a sort of fake open source where you can only really use the software if you pay for a commercial license.
    - lukeh 5y ago
      The macOS CIFS client was from BSD, not from Samba.
      - easton 5y ago
        As of Darwin 8.0.1 (so Tiger?) smbclient(1)'s man page was saying it was a component of Samba. I think some BSDs used Samba.
      - slownews45 5y ago
        BSD's have also taken a pretty strong stance against GPLv3 - again for violating their principles on freedom. I can't dig it up right now but someone can probably find it. But the BSD's used samba for a while as well.
- 5y ago

goodpoint 5y ago

These claims are absurd. AGPL and GPLv3 carry on the same mission of GPLv2 to protect authors and end users from proprietization, patent trolling and freeloading. This is why SaaS/Cloud companies dislike them and fuel FUD campaigns.