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Regarding the "work hard in your 20s" advice. I took the approach that in your 20s you are still forming, still growing, still malleable. The experiences you h

Regarding the "work hard in your 20s" advice. I took the approach that in your 20s you are still forming, still growing, still malleable. The experiences you have in your 20s will have a disproportionate effect on the kind of person you end up being. Therefore, you have to think about what environment, what experiences you want to foster that growth in. I would suggest optimizing for variety and new experiences is a better idea that working 80 hours weeks throughout your 20s. In your 20s, don't just work hard, work hard at becoming the person you want to be.

Forge36 5y ago
Work hard at learning?
- unklefolk 5y ago
  Yes. And "learning" shouldn't just be measured in PhDs or being an expert at one thing. I think the "work hard" advice can be interpreted as "focussed, tunnel vision, excelling in one area to the exclusion of everything else" when there is great benefit of aiming for a wider range of experiences in your 20s.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
Good advice. The issue, of course, is that we seldom have the luxury of this, unless we are willing to make sacrifices, or do a heck of a lot of extracurricular work. In my own development, I never had the advantage of a fancy sheepskin, so I wasn't really paid that much, compared to a lot of folks, and my employers didn't have much of an issue, when it came to throwing me at experimental stuff. It wasn't much of a risk, for them. Meant that I learned a lot. I was also given a disproportionate amount of architectural responsibility. I learned how to design systems, and complete stuff, early in my career. But it also meant that I have spent my entire career, looking up a lot of noses. I've usually been a "n00b," in most of my endeavors, and geeks tend to treat neophytes pretty badly (maybe because of all the atomic wedgies we got in grade school?). It drove me to do a much higher-quality job than what might have been considered acceptable. I developed a "screw you, I'll show you" attitude, and I've habitually produced highly-polished work, from the very beginning[0]. Didn't always win me friends. No one likes it when the chav kid shows up the toffs (but the bosses liked it, and really, they were the ones that mattered). I'd say that the humility taught by that treatment was as valuable as the book-larnin'. It forced me to solve my own problems, find information, develop a thick skin, and not rely on "magic answers from the sky." I was never able to throw the problem over the fence, so someone else could address it. I always had to clean up my own messes. I also practiced a very good team ethic, with a great deal of kindness towards teammates that were struggling or being marginalized. I figured out how to support and mentor people without making it seem as if that was what I was doing (the trick is to lead by example). I used the cruelty that I experienced from other geeks, and from awful managers, as an antipattern, in my own dealings with others. I think it helped me to be a fairly good manager. It's always a very good idea to help out folks that are not that high in the food chain. They are likely to return the favor, sooner or later, and they often have their fingers on the real pulse of things. They can be quite helpful. It hasn't been that much fun, and I haven't lived high on the hog. But I am pretty good at what I do, and, in this phase of my life, it's paid off in spades. When I saw the title, and who wrote it, I said to myself "This should be fun." [0] https://littlegreenviper.com/TF30194/TF30194-Manual-1987.pdf https://littlegreenviper.com/TF30194/TF30194-Manual-1987.pdf (Downloads a PDF of my first-ever engineering project)
disruptthelaw 5y ago
It’s always a trade off and there’s no right answer for everyone. I spent my twenties roughly as you advise, and i definitely grew and learned from it. But some of my counterparts focused on career and have achieved more on that front and have been able to have more freedom in their thirties as a result. It’s not obvious that either path is better. There is no optimal
sjm 5y ago
I love this advice. I started working remotely in my 20s and negotiated to work 4 days a week, while traveling the world and deciding where I wanted to call home. I'd never trade that time spent growing up and finding myself, learning about other cultures and places, for any level of start-up monetary success. Everyone is different and obviously has different priorities, ambitions, ideas of success, but that time spent not working my ass off has made me a more well-rounded person and I believe has contributed to a different kind of success and confidence now in my 30s.

Forge36 5y ago

Work hard at learning?

unklefolk 5y ago
Yes. And "learning" shouldn't just be measured in PhDs or being an expert at one thing. I think the "work hard" advice can be interpreted as "focussed, tunnel vision, excelling in one area to the exclusion of everything else" when there is great benefit of aiming for a wider range of experiences in your 20s.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

Good advice. The issue, of course, is that we seldom have the luxury of this, unless we are willing to make sacrifices, or do a heck of a lot of extracurricular work. In my own development, I never had the advantage of a fancy sheepskin, so I wasn't really paid that much, compared to a lot of folks, and my employers didn't have much of an issue, when it came to throwing me at experimental stuff. It wasn't much of a risk, for them. Meant that I learned a lot. I was also given a disproportionate amount of architectural responsibility. I learned how to design systems, and complete stuff, early in my career. But it also meant that I have spent my entire career, looking up a lot of noses. I've usually been a "n00b," in most of my endeavors, and geeks tend to treat neophytes pretty badly (maybe because of all the atomic wedgies we got in grade school?). It drove me to do a much higher-quality job than what might have been considered acceptable. I developed a "screw you, I'll show you" attitude, and I've habitually produced highly-polished work, from the very beginning[0]. Didn't always win me friends. No one likes it when the chav kid shows up the toffs (but the bosses liked it, and really, they were the ones that mattered). I'd say that the humility taught by that treatment was as valuable as the book-larnin'. It forced me to solve my own problems, find information, develop a thick skin, and not rely on "magic answers from the sky." I was never able to throw the problem over the fence, so someone else could address it. I always had to clean up my own messes. I also practiced a very good team ethic, with a great deal of kindness towards teammates that were struggling or being marginalized. I figured out how to support and mentor people without making it seem as if that was what I was doing (the trick is to lead by example). I used the cruelty that I experienced from other geeks, and from awful managers, as an antipattern, in my own dealings with others. I think it helped me to be a fairly good manager. It's always a very good idea to help out folks that are not that high in the food chain. They are likely to return the favor, sooner or later, and they often have their fingers on the real pulse of things. They can be quite helpful. It hasn't been that much fun, and I haven't lived high on the hog. But I am pretty good at what I do, and, in this phase of my life, it's paid off in spades. When I saw the title, and who wrote it, I said to myself "This should be fun." [0] https://littlegreenviper.com/TF30194/TF30194-Manual-1987.pdf https://littlegreenviper.com/TF30194/TF30194-Manual-1987.pdf (Downloads a PDF of my first-ever engineering project)

disruptthelaw 5y ago

It’s always a trade off and there’s no right answer for everyone. I spent my twenties roughly as you advise, and i definitely grew and learned from it. But some of my counterparts focused on career and have achieved more on that front and have been able to have more freedom in their thirties as a result. It’s not obvious that either path is better. There is no optimal

sjm 5y ago

I love this advice. I started working remotely in my 20s and negotiated to work 4 days a week, while traveling the world and deciding where I wanted to call home. I'd never trade that time spent growing up and finding myself, learning about other cultures and places, for any level of start-up monetary success. Everyone is different and obviously has different priorities, ambitions, ideas of success, but that time spent not working my ass off has made me a more well-rounded person and I believe has contributed to a different kind of success and confidence now in my 30s.