4 ms·

My biggest cheapskate-old-man gripe is how the UX as you said is systemically deteriorating in restaurants yet the tip expectations have creeped up from 15% sta

My biggest cheapskate-old-man gripe is how the UX as you said is systemically deteriorating in restaurants yet the tip expectations have creeped up from 15% standard to now 25% default. And, all apps that compute tip % or recommended tip amounts tip on top of tax, which really irks me as just a dark pattern to rip off patrons and inflate the tip amount. This is US tipping culture at absolute worse. I hold at 15% standard. Yet, many apps have defaults for 18%, 20%, 22%... all way up to 30% from what I've seen. And, they allow me to "Custom Tip" which I do once I find it (it's usually small and text instead of a button like the presets). However, once you select custom I'm back into dollars instead of percents so I have to do the math myself (and I don't even remember what the total was by this screen). At this point, I'm feeling like "okay you just don't want my money then because I'm not a whale of a tipper" so I have as some act of defiance started just skipping it altogether. I know it's not fair for that server but it's what little I can do to voice my dissent of the system.

msrenee 5y ago
You're not really voicing your dissent at that point. The server gets no tip and doesn't get any indication why. Why not just bring cash to tip? Or call the restaurant and talk to the manager? Not tipping doesn't accomplish anything and the server who has no control over the system and is already underpaid gets screwed over.
- conductr 5y ago
  > Why not just bring cash to tip? Or call the restaurant and talk to the manager? We're talking patron UX here and point is I don't what to shoulder the burden. I didn't even want to calculate 15% tip in my head and you want me to start carrying cash everywhere, something I haven't done since Y2K was a concern. Spend 15 minutes waiting for the manager to come over? No thanks. > Not tipping doesn't accomplish anything and the server who has no control over the system and is already underpaid gets screwed over. I view that as "not my problem". I know it's wrong if the server gets screwed, I'm not arguing this is a just behavior on my part. But, if you extrapolate my behavior to all patrons the restaurant would get a hint real quick that people didn't want to tip 20%/25% and reduce the defaults. They know I'm dissenting it's just that I'm the only one dissenting so they're not even paying attention. Instead, what is happening is the opposite. Patrons were conditioned that 15% is too low. 20% is now standard, pushing up to 25% which will be standard in a couple years if trend continues. FWIW, I hate tipping in general. I wish they were paid a fair wage and I was billed appropriately on the front end.
  - chihuahua 5y ago
    Not only does the "recommended" tipping amount keep going up, but in a lot of discussions there's the additional bullshit of waiters saying "Well 25% is the bare minimum, (if you're a total jerk), but if you tip 35% we'll really take care of you!" To me, a waiter provides no value at all. I'd rather order at a counter and pick up the food myself. Then I don't have someone asking me "how is everything" when my mouth is full. I don't need to pay someone a 30% cut for this.
    - conductr 5y ago
      Yes. The discussions I've seen from waiter expectations like you mention is what has soured me the most on tipping. Also, I don't feel like my check size is very related to the amount of work involved. At least in my 95% use case of 2-4 people. The waiter does the same thing, checks in on us just as much, still juggling 5-10 other tables. I'm there for an hour. I just don't see $15-30 of value in the service I got during my interaction (my typical check size is $50-100), that's where I land back on my 15% standard. I don't always see that value either, but it's what helps me sleep at night. If I'm with 5+ people or stay longer than an hour or am eating at a higher priced place where waiter is probably serving fewer tables simultaneously then I adjust accordingly. Another irk of mine is how alcohol falls into this equation. If I buy a $50 bottle of wine I'm supposed to give $10 tip when usually all they do is open the bottle? My rule is a dollar per serving. It's probably outdated rule and needs some adjustment for inflation as that's been my rule for a long time.
      - snypher 5y ago
        >It's probably outdated rule and needs some adjustment for inflation Honestly if the minimum wage was increased appropriately we wouldn't have to bother with tipping at all.
        brokenmachine 5y ago
        This is the real problem. Unfortunately big business has politicians by the balls, so this is unlikely to happen. Billionaires get tax breaks while the lowest-paid workers buying power goes down every year without fail. And no guillotines because they're all too busy trying to keep their head above water. GG billionaires.
- FalconSensei 5y ago
  > Why not just bring cash to tip If the point is not to keep calculating the tip, that's worse. And then we would need to wait to get the change on the tip?
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  >Not tipping doesn't accomplish anything and the server who has no control over the system and is already underpaid gets screwed over. What a curious statement, American Stockholm Syndrome in full effect. I'm in Australia and tipping is only really done in the case of exceptional service. The price on the menu is the price you pay. Nobody feels animosity towards someone who pays the price on the menu, and nobody feels guilt for "only" paying the price that was specified. Also nobody would expect sub-par service or to be disparaged if they don't pay more, as sibling commenters have mentioned. Much simpler for everyone - why should customers have to do convoluted maths to work out how much to subsidize a business that can't afford to pay their workers? That is pretty much the definition of an unviable business.
Camillo 5y ago
A related problem with the apps is that they expand the tipping expectation to all sorts of interactions that were not traditionally tipped, such as ordering at a cash register. You don't need to tip someone just because they have an iPad!
- conductr 5y ago
  Agree. The worst are the little vendors. I want to support you and all because I love your small batch popsicles, that's why I'm paying $7 each. But, you just took it out of a freezer and handed it to me, this is a pure retail transaction at this point. It's like going to 7-11 and saying, I need $20 on pump 8 and here's $5 for your trouble...
qazxcvbnmlp 5y ago
Yep - and now the waitstaff will gossip about you behind your back, give you bad service and thing you’re grumpy old man. You thought you were dissenting, but it mostly just reflects poorly on you. Source - brother is a server.
- conductr 5y ago
  I don't care what someone that behaves that way thinks of me. I seldom repeat to places with bad service. Or if I do, I seldom see the same waiter. In reality, this has zero impact on me except further diminishes my opinion of the "profession" which goes back to my original comment about degrading service and increasing expectations ($) being at conflict
FalconSensei 5y ago
If I have to do math and input in dollar, I do 10%, which is easier to calculate
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- conductr 5y ago
  I've thought about this. My "15%" standard in application is more like. 10% + 50% of 10%, ambiguously round to whole dollar. So if the bill was $45, I think, $4.5 + about $2 is $6.5 so I'll give $6 but maybe I go $7. I never do cents unless it's to force the total to a whole dollar amount (rare). I'm moving towards a fixed amount. Since, as I mentioned elsewhere I don't see a strict correlation between menu price and work performed. The amount of work to bring me a steak is same as work to bring me a burger; but the steak might cost 3x more. Majority of dining experiences follow the same script and same amount of interaction with waitstaff so I'm thinking of just giving everyone $X and don't even consider what I spent. Maybe adjust up if we had appetizers, extra beverages, or some difficult situation. Having a toddler, I've left my fair share of huge "sorry for the mess" tips and that doesn't bother me at all.

msrenee 5y ago

You're not really voicing your dissent at that point. The server gets no tip and doesn't get any indication why. Why not just bring cash to tip? Or call the restaurant and talk to the manager? Not tipping doesn't accomplish anything and the server who has no control over the system and is already underpaid gets screwed over.

conductr 5y ago
> Why not just bring cash to tip? Or call the restaurant and talk to the manager? We're talking patron UX here and point is I don't what to shoulder the burden. I didn't even want to calculate 15% tip in my head and you want me to start carrying cash everywhere, something I haven't done since Y2K was a concern. Spend 15 minutes waiting for the manager to come over? No thanks. > Not tipping doesn't accomplish anything and the server who has no control over the system and is already underpaid gets screwed over. I view that as "not my problem". I know it's wrong if the server gets screwed, I'm not arguing this is a just behavior on my part. But, if you extrapolate my behavior to all patrons the restaurant would get a hint real quick that people didn't want to tip 20%/25% and reduce the defaults. They know I'm dissenting it's just that I'm the only one dissenting so they're not even paying attention. Instead, what is happening is the opposite. Patrons were conditioned that 15% is too low. 20% is now standard, pushing up to 25% which will be standard in a couple years if trend continues. FWIW, I hate tipping in general. I wish they were paid a fair wage and I was billed appropriately on the front end.
- chihuahua 5y ago
  Not only does the "recommended" tipping amount keep going up, but in a lot of discussions there's the additional bullshit of waiters saying "Well 25% is the bare minimum, (if you're a total jerk), but if you tip 35% we'll really take care of you!" To me, a waiter provides no value at all. I'd rather order at a counter and pick up the food myself. Then I don't have someone asking me "how is everything" when my mouth is full. I don't need to pay someone a 30% cut for this.
  - conductr 5y ago
    Yes. The discussions I've seen from waiter expectations like you mention is what has soured me the most on tipping. Also, I don't feel like my check size is very related to the amount of work involved. At least in my 95% use case of 2-4 people. The waiter does the same thing, checks in on us just as much, still juggling 5-10 other tables. I'm there for an hour. I just don't see $15-30 of value in the service I got during my interaction (my typical check size is $50-100), that's where I land back on my 15% standard. I don't always see that value either, but it's what helps me sleep at night. If I'm with 5+ people or stay longer than an hour or am eating at a higher priced place where waiter is probably serving fewer tables simultaneously then I adjust accordingly. Another irk of mine is how alcohol falls into this equation. If I buy a $50 bottle of wine I'm supposed to give $10 tip when usually all they do is open the bottle? My rule is a dollar per serving. It's probably outdated rule and needs some adjustment for inflation as that's been my rule for a long time.
    - snypher 5y ago
      >It's probably outdated rule and needs some adjustment for inflation Honestly if the minimum wage was increased appropriately we wouldn't have to bother with tipping at all.
      - brokenmachine 5y ago
        This is the real problem. Unfortunately big business has politicians by the balls, so this is unlikely to happen. Billionaires get tax breaks while the lowest-paid workers buying power goes down every year without fail. And no guillotines because they're all too busy trying to keep their head above water. GG billionaires.
FalconSensei 5y ago
> Why not just bring cash to tip If the point is not to keep calculating the tip, that's worse. And then we would need to wait to get the change on the tip?
brokenmachine 5y ago
>Not tipping doesn't accomplish anything and the server who has no control over the system and is already underpaid gets screwed over. What a curious statement, American Stockholm Syndrome in full effect. I'm in Australia and tipping is only really done in the case of exceptional service. The price on the menu is the price you pay. Nobody feels animosity towards someone who pays the price on the menu, and nobody feels guilt for "only" paying the price that was specified. Also nobody would expect sub-par service or to be disparaged if they don't pay more, as sibling commenters have mentioned. Much simpler for everyone - why should customers have to do convoluted maths to work out how much to subsidize a business that can't afford to pay their workers? That is pretty much the definition of an unviable business.

Camillo 5y ago

A related problem with the apps is that they expand the tipping expectation to all sorts of interactions that were not traditionally tipped, such as ordering at a cash register. You don't need to tip someone just because they have an iPad!

conductr 5y ago
Agree. The worst are the little vendors. I want to support you and all because I love your small batch popsicles, that's why I'm paying $7 each. But, you just took it out of a freezer and handed it to me, this is a pure retail transaction at this point. It's like going to 7-11 and saying, I need $20 on pump 8 and here's $5 for your trouble...

qazxcvbnmlp 5y ago

Yep - and now the waitstaff will gossip about you behind your back, give you bad service and thing you’re grumpy old man. You thought you were dissenting, but it mostly just reflects poorly on you. Source - brother is a server.

conductr 5y ago
I don't care what someone that behaves that way thinks of me. I seldom repeat to places with bad service. Or if I do, I seldom see the same waiter. In reality, this has zero impact on me except further diminishes my opinion of the "profession" which goes back to my original comment about degrading service and increasing expectations ($) being at conflict

FalconSensei 5y ago

If I have to do math and input in dollar, I do 10%, which is easier to calculate

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
conductr 5y ago
I've thought about this. My "15%" standard in application is more like. 10% + 50% of 10%, ambiguously round to whole dollar. So if the bill was $45, I think, $4.5 + about $2 is $6.5 so I'll give $6 but maybe I go $7. I never do cents unless it's to force the total to a whole dollar amount (rare). I'm moving towards a fixed amount. Since, as I mentioned elsewhere I don't see a strict correlation between menu price and work performed. The amount of work to bring me a steak is same as work to bring me a burger; but the steak might cost 3x more. Majority of dining experiences follow the same script and same amount of interaction with waitstaff so I'm thinking of just giving everyone $X and don't even consider what I spent. Maybe adjust up if we had appetizers, extra beverages, or some difficult situation. Having a toddler, I've left my fair share of huge "sorry for the mess" tips and that doesn't bother me at all.