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> There are no alpha/beta males in human society. An overwhelming majority of males get access to females. This is absolutely false. What percentage of our anc

> There are no alpha/beta males in human society. An overwhelming majority of males get access to females. This is absolutely false. What percentage of our ancestors were women? It isn't 50%. Half of the people who ever lived were women, but thats certainly not the case for all the people who ever lived and have a descendant living today. Thanks to DNA analysis we know that today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men. To get that kind of difference, the figures have to be something like: Throughout the entire history of the human race, maybe 80% of women but only 40% of men reproduced. In other words, most human males who ever lived do not have descendants who are alive today.

WA 15y ago
So that means every other man, or one in three, is an alpha male? I have my doubts. According to the sophisticated baboon theory from the article, it seems that there are way fewer alpha males than a 1 in 3 number. The alpha male concept is extremely flawed when it comes to human beings. Quick question: What happens, if you put 100 acknowledged alpha males from all over the country (you know, the ones who screw all the women out there) in one room? According to alpha male theory, there must be one out of them who still is THE super alpha male.
- araneae 15y ago
  I agree with the general premise that the social situations are only very loosely analogous, but your argument against it is quite poor. >So that means every other man, or one in three, is an alpha male? I have my doubts. No, that is not a conclusion you can draw at all. Not every animal that reproduces is alpha, as you would have realized if you read the article. So say the baboon group has 10 males and 10 females. 8 females reproduce. 2 males each have one offspring each, the beta has 4, the alpha gets 8. That's 40% of the males reproducing, half the number of females that reproduce. Obviously humans are different, because we don't have a harem social structure; we're a lot more monogamous. But we do see high status males getting a disproportionate number of women. >What happens, if you put 100 acknowledged alpha males from all over the country If you take 100 alpha males and artificially create a new social group with all of them, what would happen is they would fight with each other and establish a new social hierarchy. You're acting as if there's some platonic version of the alpha male. The alpha male is just the dude that can kick the other dudes' butts in their current situation. Social hierarchies shift constantly.
  - sp332 15y ago
    Is the "alpha" about the number of offspring, or the number of females "available"? You seem to be confusing the two in your example.
    - araneae 15y ago
      I'm not sure what's confusing you. In my example I was using an example given above (80% of females reproducing, 40% of males reproducing, thus, twice as many females reproducing as males.) I only talked about the division of offspring among the males because that's what's relevant in this case; they denote the relative hierarchy. The division of offspring among females is not relevant since we are talking about males. It was just a toy example anyway to show how the math works out.
    - jerf 15y ago
      Alpha is... about carefully defining your terms in advance, then using them. There are a number of relevant senses. Both of the examples you gave are relevant, as are discussions about how alphas behave and psychologically dominate others, and humans have interesting quirks not found in the animal world since we have such rich social lives, like being behaviorally "alpha" with one group of people, but not other groups.
scythe 15y ago
>Thanks to DNA analysis we know that today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men. Link?
- simonsarris 15y ago
  The line is actually from a psychology address that I've had bookmarked for a few years. It's pretty interesting, so I decided to submit it as its own topic: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2767867 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2767867 Or the address here: http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm? The line itself is unsourced, or at least taken for granted, in the address.
sajid 15y ago
maratd is talking about present day human society not the evolutionary past. According to a survey carried out in 2000, 84% of males and 86% of females reproduce: http://fatherhood.hhs.gov/charting02/introduction.htm#Who http://fatherhood.hhs.gov/charting02/introduction.htm#Who
deleted 15y ago
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WA 15y ago

So that means every other man, or one in three, is an alpha male? I have my doubts. According to the sophisticated baboon theory from the article, it seems that there are way fewer alpha males than a 1 in 3 number. The alpha male concept is extremely flawed when it comes to human beings. Quick question: What happens, if you put 100 acknowledged alpha males from all over the country (you know, the ones who screw all the women out there) in one room? According to alpha male theory, there must be one out of them who still is THE super alpha male.

araneae 15y ago
I agree with the general premise that the social situations are only very loosely analogous, but your argument against it is quite poor. >So that means every other man, or one in three, is an alpha male? I have my doubts. No, that is not a conclusion you can draw at all. Not every animal that reproduces is alpha, as you would have realized if you read the article. So say the baboon group has 10 males and 10 females. 8 females reproduce. 2 males each have one offspring each, the beta has 4, the alpha gets 8. That's 40% of the males reproducing, half the number of females that reproduce. Obviously humans are different, because we don't have a harem social structure; we're a lot more monogamous. But we do see high status males getting a disproportionate number of women. >What happens, if you put 100 acknowledged alpha males from all over the country If you take 100 alpha males and artificially create a new social group with all of them, what would happen is they would fight with each other and establish a new social hierarchy. You're acting as if there's some platonic version of the alpha male. The alpha male is just the dude that can kick the other dudes' butts in their current situation. Social hierarchies shift constantly.
- sp332 15y ago
  Is the "alpha" about the number of offspring, or the number of females "available"? You seem to be confusing the two in your example.
  - araneae 15y ago
    I'm not sure what's confusing you. In my example I was using an example given above (80% of females reproducing, 40% of males reproducing, thus, twice as many females reproducing as males.) I only talked about the division of offspring among the males because that's what's relevant in this case; they denote the relative hierarchy. The division of offspring among females is not relevant since we are talking about males. It was just a toy example anyway to show how the math works out.
  - jerf 15y ago
    Alpha is... about carefully defining your terms in advance, then using them. There are a number of relevant senses. Both of the examples you gave are relevant, as are discussions about how alphas behave and psychologically dominate others, and humans have interesting quirks not found in the animal world since we have such rich social lives, like being behaviorally "alpha" with one group of people, but not other groups.

scythe 15y ago

>Thanks to DNA analysis we know that today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men. Link?

simonsarris 15y ago
The line is actually from a psychology address that I've had bookmarked for a few years. It's pretty interesting, so I decided to submit it as its own topic: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2767867 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2767867 Or the address here: http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm? The line itself is unsourced, or at least taken for granted, in the address.

sajid 15y ago

maratd is talking about present day human society not the evolutionary past. According to a survey carried out in 2000, 84% of males and 86% of females reproduce: http://fatherhood.hhs.gov/charting02/introduction.htm#Who http://fatherhood.hhs.gov/charting02/introduction.htm#Who

deleted 15y ago

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