6 ms·

Spanking can worsen a child's behavior

28 points by rehto21 5y ago

gcthomas 5y ago
Corporal punishment is banned in many countries, such as New Zealand, Sweden, Germany, Portugal, Ukraine, Israel, Denmark, Brazil, Kenya and Congo, amongst many others. These nations don't seem to have a particular discipline problem amongst their children, so I don't see why more countries wouldn't legislate against a behaviour that is clearly not better than other discipline techniques, and is also known to have plenty of negative effects. What is everyone else waiting for? This research reported has been consistent for over two decades — nothing is going to change through waiting, except that more children are harmed by their carers' behaviour towards them.
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  > These nations don't seem to have a particular discipline problem amongst their children, If anything I suspect that child behaviour will be better in such nations, it certainly is here in Norway.
- robotron 5y ago
  As far as the US goes, I wouldn't doubt that it's intertwined with our religious history. "Spare the rod, spoil the child". Still getting our child-rearing advice from bronze age shepherds.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  >Brazil, Kenya, and Congo I've seen some liveleak videos that maybe could argue that Corporal punishment being illegal is either not enforced or definitely does not work for these countries.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    Aside from Congo the other two have ridiculously high crime rates so I wouldn't use them as examples of exemplary child rearing.
- odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
  I didn't know it was banned in Portugal but I would say this as a portuguese and having a school aged kid, parents hit their kids a lot here. Maybe not in the middle of Continente (walmart) but at home. Not beat them to death, but spanking their butts and the likes is quite common (and between parent talks, they are even sorta 'proud' of doing so)
kwhitefoot 5y ago
This is hardly news.
- dagw 5y ago
  The actual news is that one of the most comprehensive studies on the topic has just been published, confirming that "spanking can worsen a child's behavior".
- aliasEli 5y ago
  The news for me was that there is still legal in the most parts of the US.
a3n 5y ago
> "Parents hit their children because they think doing so will improve their behavior," Gershoff said. That's what parents say. Parents hit their kids because they're angry with no impulse control, or assholes. Doing the same thing to an adult can get you an assault charge, or a punch in the face. I think the punishment for corporal punishment should be jail and corporal punishment.
- mc32 5y ago
  So Singapore isn’t too bad off? It’s also lack of education. I’ve travelled 3rd world countries and spanking is quite normalized, however, it appears that for parents it’s a normal reaction. So this is a cultural thing and change follows education.
- bequanna 5y ago
  Maybe you’re talking about something else here, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with small amounts of physical correction. This can be absolutely necessary to change a manic child’s state before they learn emotional or impulse control. Putting out cigarettes on a child or punching them? Yea, that is assault or worse.
- coldtea 5y ago
  >Doing the same thing to an adult can get you an assault charge, or a punch in the face. Only people in a capacity of authority do the same thing to adults all the time when they're hard to control / reason with: imprison them, beat them and pin them down when they are unruly, restrain them, taze them, some countries have corporal punishment, and several other things besides. What many modern parents did is exchange some slap and/or light hitting (which is not the same as abuse) with an arsenal of psychological manipulation, negotiation tactics, and guilt-inducing talk to get the kids to cooperate. Or, perhaps worse, giving up and letting kids having free-reign and ending up as horrible unsufferable me-me-me adults who think the world is there to serve them.
  - anoncake 5y ago
    How many abusers learned from their parents that it's okay to abuse people to you have authority over?
skocznymroczny 5y ago
There is a difference between spanking and child abuse. The opposite of always trying to negotiate with the child also has it's drawbacks. It moves the parent from position of authority to position of a partner and forces him/her to negotiate over every little detail in life. Also, spanking is quite an efficient method if you get the "child laying down on the floor in the middle of a department store" problem. In this case negotiations won't give you anything, unless you promise your child to buy every single thing that grabbed his attention on the shelves.
- anoncake 5y ago
  You could wait until your child is done lying on the floor, not buy them anything, and perhaps punish them in a civilized way later. Or carry them out of the store if you're in a hurry. Violence is always abuse and should not be tolerated.
  - mc32 5y ago
    I would agree. I think for parents in a hurry an inconsolable child is challenging in a public setting. As you say carrying them off might be the best option at that point, if you have your hands free —which may not be the case.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    > You could wait until your child is done lying on the floor If your kid is a shit, and you bring them into my day and allow them to continue being a shit, well, you are a shit.
    - anoncake 5y ago
      No, your convenience is not more important than the welfare and bodily integrity of a child.
      - atatatat 5y ago
        If your idea of civilization is that we can reward, through inaction, being totally uncivilized, then I reject your civilization.
foolzcrow 5y ago
CNN is made up of rejects. Take CNN advice at your own risk.
im3w1l 5y ago
> The most "consistent support," in 13 of 19 independent studies, was that spanking and other forms of child punishment created more external problem behaviors over time, Gershoff said, such as "increased aggression, increased antisocial behavior, and increased disruptive behavior in school." > Some studies in the review found physical punishment increased conduct problems and signs of oppositional defiant disorder, which is characterized by temper tantrums, argumentative and defiant behavior, active defiance and refusal to follow rules, spitefulness and vindictiveness. But is that adaptive or not?
xyzzy123 5y ago
I am fairly hesitant to share this but if I do it I should be willing to talk about it. I occasionally give my son a sharp tap on the side of the head. I have 3 kids and he is the only one I do this with. Words do not work with him, at least at this age. This is very close to being illegal where I come from. I'm careful to do this only when he's say, throwing things recklessly or otherwise engaging in behaviour with real risks to others. It's not a "clip round the ears" and it's not meant to hurt. It's also not intended as "punishment". What it is though is a reliable way to get his attention; being honest he just responds much more readily to this than words as a way to communicate "stop now". Sample size n=1, all families, situations and children are different. As I write this and think about it I realise there is probably a better way to do this, all suggestions appreciated. EDIT: previously I found myself yelling, using "stern voice" or physically restraining him before I got to the point of thinking about a "physical signal".
- odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
  I have never hit my kid (but my ex-wife has) as for whatever reason, he has an amount of respect for me that my body language alone is enough. Here is the thing, you probably not doing something wrong. As long it isn't a everyday thing, it isn't so bad as people make it to be. The 'tap' to stop, then talking with him/her works, worked on me when I was a kid, probably the only thing that did to be honest. The 'physical violence' was the awakening call, then the conversation after that grounded it. ps: if you just slap the living crap of him, say he is bad, and send him to his room without talking with him, then sure, that is an absolutely shitty behaviour, but I don't think this is what you are doing from your text.
- vanattab 5y ago
  People think I am crazy when I says this but I think generally physically "punishment" should mostly be reserved for toddlers and only when in situations where failure to learn the "lesson" could be very dangerous to the child. For example if you see a toddler sticking something in an electrical socket (a very common occurrence because they see adults do it) I think it is very appropriate to sharply smack the child's hand so it stings a bit. It is important for that child's safety to assocate sticking stuff into outlets with pain and there is no way you can explain the risks to a toddler. Once I child has the ability to speak and has basic reasoning I see very little if any use for physical "punishment"
johnkpaul 5y ago
I want them to do this similar analysis on any shows of force, even not for particular anger filled situations. For example, I have triplets, and sometimes the only way to accomplish what’s necessary at the local maximum of time and other infants benefit and parental benefit is to physically force a squirming baby into the diaper changing table. Is this along the same lines as spanking? Is there any mitigation of those behavior impacts by explaining why I’m physically forcing something? As always with parenting, lots of questions and basically no answers.
- anoncake 5y ago
  There is a difference between physically forcing something and inflicting pain for pain's sake.
- Johnjonjoan 5y ago
  I think there's certainly a difference. With spanking you are trying to affect the thought processes that lead to bad behaviour (condition them) with violence. Implicitly showing the child it's ok to use violence to get what you want. Cue tantrums, destructive tendencies, etc. In your case you are using force (which isn't the same as violence) to achieve something. Your showing the child some things must be done whether they like it or not. I do believe you should always explain your actions in these kind of situations because children are rational but not nuanced. You have to be much more explicit with them so they learn to understand the implicit.
  - johnkpaul 5y ago
    Yeah that makes sense. I always explain and try my best to give them some amount of time to agree to it without physical force. As they grow older, I expect this to become less necessary and for them to know that I have no actual _desire_ to hurt them at all.
- dagw 5y ago
  Is there any mitigation of those behavior impacts by explaining why I’m physically forcing something? I'd say the one big differentiator is pain. I'm assuming that you are using the minimal force necessary and doing your best to not intentionally cause pain. Striking a child is done with the sole intention of causing pain.
doggodaddo78 5y ago
Yep. Anecdotally, my aunt was a Section 8 Neanderthal single-mom. She beat my cousin with a wooden spoon. Combine that with no father figure, she ran away with an infamous biker gang before she was 17.
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
As a child who was spanked, there was a single moment in my life where I realized as a teen, my parents didn't spank for discipline, but they were just shitty parents. So being raised in a conservative household, obviously Fox News was on. Glenn Beck was talking about spanking your children. And he said one of the most profound things that I honestly couldn't wrap my head around for physical punishment. He said "After you spank them, you hug them. And remind them that you love them and say it!" That was the moment I realized my parents were just abusive and thought they could alter behavior just by beating us. I hear it all the time with their dogs. If they do something they don't like, they don't take time to properly train them, it's straight to an angry tone and "I'm gonna get a stick." Meanwhile I helped train these dogs and have taught them many things. On top of this they all listen and come to me without threatening them. The funniest part is my parents always say "Why do they follow you all the time?" I almost wish I could play the curb your enthusiasm theme anytime they talk because they are absurdly out of touch with even a base line level of psychology.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
One thing that can be hard to tease out in observational studies is correlation versus causation. Does spanking increase the bad behavior or is bad behavior more likely to lead to spanking? One thing that could help make sense of this would be to look at non-violent punishments like “time out”. Does increased use of time outs also lead to bad behavior? If so, then one might consider that the punishment is correlation not causation.

28 points by rehto21 5y ago

Corporal punishment is banned in many countries, such as New Zealand, Sweden, Germany, Portugal, Ukraine, Israel, Denmark, Brazil, Kenya and Congo, amongst many others. These nations don't seem to have a particular discipline problem amongst their children, so I don't see why more countries wouldn't legislate against a behaviour that is clearly not better than other discipline techniques, and is also known to have plenty of negative effects. What is everyone else waiting for? This research reported has been consistent for over two decades — nothing is going to change through waiting, except that more children are harmed by their carers' behaviour towards them.

kwhitefoot 5y ago
> These nations don't seem to have a particular discipline problem amongst their children, If anything I suspect that child behaviour will be better in such nations, it certainly is here in Norway.
robotron 5y ago
As far as the US goes, I wouldn't doubt that it's intertwined with our religious history. "Spare the rod, spoil the child". Still getting our child-rearing advice from bronze age shepherds.
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
>Brazil, Kenya, and Congo I've seen some liveleak videos that maybe could argue that Corporal punishment being illegal is either not enforced or definitely does not work for these countries.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  Aside from Congo the other two have ridiculously high crime rates so I wouldn't use them as examples of exemplary child rearing.
odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
I didn't know it was banned in Portugal but I would say this as a portuguese and having a school aged kid, parents hit their kids a lot here. Maybe not in the middle of Continente (walmart) but at home. Not beat them to death, but spanking their butts and the likes is quite common (and between parent talks, they are even sorta 'proud' of doing so)

kwhitefoot 5y ago

This is hardly news.

dagw 5y ago
The actual news is that one of the most comprehensive studies on the topic has just been published, confirming that "spanking can worsen a child's behavior".
aliasEli 5y ago
The news for me was that there is still legal in the most parts of the US.

a3n 5y ago

> "Parents hit their children because they think doing so will improve their behavior," Gershoff said. That's what parents say. Parents hit their kids because they're angry with no impulse control, or assholes. Doing the same thing to an adult can get you an assault charge, or a punch in the face. I think the punishment for corporal punishment should be jail and corporal punishment.

mc32 5y ago
So Singapore isn’t too bad off? It’s also lack of education. I’ve travelled 3rd world countries and spanking is quite normalized, however, it appears that for parents it’s a normal reaction. So this is a cultural thing and change follows education.
bequanna 5y ago
Maybe you’re talking about something else here, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with small amounts of physical correction. This can be absolutely necessary to change a manic child’s state before they learn emotional or impulse control. Putting out cigarettes on a child or punching them? Yea, that is assault or worse.
coldtea 5y ago
>Doing the same thing to an adult can get you an assault charge, or a punch in the face. Only people in a capacity of authority do the same thing to adults all the time when they're hard to control / reason with: imprison them, beat them and pin them down when they are unruly, restrain them, taze them, some countries have corporal punishment, and several other things besides. What many modern parents did is exchange some slap and/or light hitting (which is not the same as abuse) with an arsenal of psychological manipulation, negotiation tactics, and guilt-inducing talk to get the kids to cooperate. Or, perhaps worse, giving up and letting kids having free-reign and ending up as horrible unsufferable me-me-me adults who think the world is there to serve them.
- anoncake 5y ago
  How many abusers learned from their parents that it's okay to abuse people to you have authority over?

skocznymroczny 5y ago

There is a difference between spanking and child abuse. The opposite of always trying to negotiate with the child also has it's drawbacks. It moves the parent from position of authority to position of a partner and forces him/her to negotiate over every little detail in life. Also, spanking is quite an efficient method if you get the "child laying down on the floor in the middle of a department store" problem. In this case negotiations won't give you anything, unless you promise your child to buy every single thing that grabbed his attention on the shelves.

anoncake 5y ago
You could wait until your child is done lying on the floor, not buy them anything, and perhaps punish them in a civilized way later. Or carry them out of the store if you're in a hurry. Violence is always abuse and should not be tolerated.
- mc32 5y ago
  I would agree. I think for parents in a hurry an inconsolable child is challenging in a public setting. As you say carrying them off might be the best option at that point, if you have your hands free —which may not be the case.
- atatatat 5y ago
  > You could wait until your child is done lying on the floor If your kid is a shit, and you bring them into my day and allow them to continue being a shit, well, you are a shit.
  - anoncake 5y ago
    No, your convenience is not more important than the welfare and bodily integrity of a child.
    - atatatat 5y ago
      If your idea of civilization is that we can reward, through inaction, being totally uncivilized, then I reject your civilization.

foolzcrow 5y ago

CNN is made up of rejects. Take CNN advice at your own risk.

im3w1l 5y ago

> The most "consistent support," in 13 of 19 independent studies, was that spanking and other forms of child punishment created more external problem behaviors over time, Gershoff said, such as "increased aggression, increased antisocial behavior, and increased disruptive behavior in school." > Some studies in the review found physical punishment increased conduct problems and signs of oppositional defiant disorder, which is characterized by temper tantrums, argumentative and defiant behavior, active defiance and refusal to follow rules, spitefulness and vindictiveness. But is that adaptive or not?

xyzzy123 5y ago

I am fairly hesitant to share this but if I do it I should be willing to talk about it. I occasionally give my son a sharp tap on the side of the head. I have 3 kids and he is the only one I do this with. Words do not work with him, at least at this age. This is very close to being illegal where I come from. I'm careful to do this only when he's say, throwing things recklessly or otherwise engaging in behaviour with real risks to others. It's not a "clip round the ears" and it's not meant to hurt. It's also not intended as "punishment". What it is though is a reliable way to get his attention; being honest he just responds much more readily to this than words as a way to communicate "stop now". Sample size n=1, all families, situations and children are different. As I write this and think about it I realise there is probably a better way to do this, all suggestions appreciated. EDIT: previously I found myself yelling, using "stern voice" or physically restraining him before I got to the point of thinking about a "physical signal".

odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
I have never hit my kid (but my ex-wife has) as for whatever reason, he has an amount of respect for me that my body language alone is enough. Here is the thing, you probably not doing something wrong. As long it isn't a everyday thing, it isn't so bad as people make it to be. The 'tap' to stop, then talking with him/her works, worked on me when I was a kid, probably the only thing that did to be honest. The 'physical violence' was the awakening call, then the conversation after that grounded it. ps: if you just slap the living crap of him, say he is bad, and send him to his room without talking with him, then sure, that is an absolutely shitty behaviour, but I don't think this is what you are doing from your text.
vanattab 5y ago
People think I am crazy when I says this but I think generally physically "punishment" should mostly be reserved for toddlers and only when in situations where failure to learn the "lesson" could be very dangerous to the child. For example if you see a toddler sticking something in an electrical socket (a very common occurrence because they see adults do it) I think it is very appropriate to sharply smack the child's hand so it stings a bit. It is important for that child's safety to assocate sticking stuff into outlets with pain and there is no way you can explain the risks to a toddler. Once I child has the ability to speak and has basic reasoning I see very little if any use for physical "punishment"

johnkpaul 5y ago

I want them to do this similar analysis on any shows of force, even not for particular anger filled situations. For example, I have triplets, and sometimes the only way to accomplish what’s necessary at the local maximum of time and other infants benefit and parental benefit is to physically force a squirming baby into the diaper changing table. Is this along the same lines as spanking? Is there any mitigation of those behavior impacts by explaining why I’m physically forcing something? As always with parenting, lots of questions and basically no answers.

anoncake 5y ago
There is a difference between physically forcing something and inflicting pain for pain's sake.
Johnjonjoan 5y ago
I think there's certainly a difference. With spanking you are trying to affect the thought processes that lead to bad behaviour (condition them) with violence. Implicitly showing the child it's ok to use violence to get what you want. Cue tantrums, destructive tendencies, etc. In your case you are using force (which isn't the same as violence) to achieve something. Your showing the child some things must be done whether they like it or not. I do believe you should always explain your actions in these kind of situations because children are rational but not nuanced. You have to be much more explicit with them so they learn to understand the implicit.
- johnkpaul 5y ago
  Yeah that makes sense. I always explain and try my best to give them some amount of time to agree to it without physical force. As they grow older, I expect this to become less necessary and for them to know that I have no actual _desire_ to hurt them at all.
dagw 5y ago
Is there any mitigation of those behavior impacts by explaining why I’m physically forcing something? I'd say the one big differentiator is pain. I'm assuming that you are using the minimal force necessary and doing your best to not intentionally cause pain. Striking a child is done with the sole intention of causing pain.

doggodaddo78 5y ago

Yep. Anecdotally, my aunt was a Section 8 Neanderthal single-mom. She beat my cousin with a wooden spoon. Combine that with no father figure, she ran away with an infamous biker gang before she was 17.

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago

As a child who was spanked, there was a single moment in my life where I realized as a teen, my parents didn't spank for discipline, but they were just shitty parents. So being raised in a conservative household, obviously Fox News was on. Glenn Beck was talking about spanking your children. And he said one of the most profound things that I honestly couldn't wrap my head around for physical punishment. He said "After you spank them, you hug them. And remind them that you love them and say it!" That was the moment I realized my parents were just abusive and thought they could alter behavior just by beating us. I hear it all the time with their dogs. If they do something they don't like, they don't take time to properly train them, it's straight to an angry tone and "I'm gonna get a stick." Meanwhile I helped train these dogs and have taught them many things. On top of this they all listen and come to me without threatening them. The funniest part is my parents always say "Why do they follow you all the time?" I almost wish I could play the curb your enthusiasm theme anytime they talk because they are absurdly out of touch with even a base line level of psychology.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago

One thing that can be hard to tease out in observational studies is correlation versus causation. Does spanking increase the bad behavior or is bad behavior more likely to lead to spanking? One thing that could help make sense of this would be to look at non-violent punishments like “time out”. Does increased use of time outs also lead to bad behavior? If so, then one might consider that the punishment is correlation not causation.