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Petrol cars have significantly longer driving range, which is important for transport efficiency. Petrol cars are significantly cheaper to buy. Petrol cars re

Petrol cars have significantly longer driving range, which is important for transport efficiency. Petrol cars are significantly cheaper to buy. Petrol cars refuel significantly faster than electronic cars recharge. Petrol cars don't have a costly battery which degrades over time and pollutes.

busterarm 5y ago
Petrol cars actually work in extreme climates.
- 6f8986c3 5y ago
  Petrol cars can be easily fixed in a driveway.
  - Causality1 5y ago
    This comment does not deserve downvotes. Tesla is every bit as anti-hobbyist as Apple or John Deere.
    - nickik 5y ago
      Did you know that Tesla is not the only EV company?
      - Causality1 5y ago
        Tesla is 80% of the US BEV market. Which manufacturers make their electric vehicles easy to work on?
        nickik 5y ago
        No current company makes any of their modern cars deliberately easy to work on. No matter the %, the fact is you can get a car from VW, BMW, Daimler, Hyundai, Nissan and so on.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    Not a modern one. An outdated, inefficient one, sure. But not one that is actually built to be efficient.
    - ppf 5y ago
      The Fiat 500 from 1957 got 43mpg. Imagine what could be done, if car manufacturers were not focussed on the lease market, meeting the newest emissions regulations (more relevant in Europe), and filling cars with electronic toys.
      - user-the-name 5y ago
        Renault Twingo III gets 66 mpg, while having much more space and being generally more useful.
        ppf 5y ago
        Yep, there are modern engines that will do that. I was using the example of an older engine, because they are generally much more fixable (which was OP's original point).
        user-the-name 5y ago
        But my point is, the equivalent today gets a lot better milage, and the reason why has lots to do with why it is not fixable.
        ppf 5y ago
        Yes, modern engines are optimised for fuel and emissions efficiency to within an inch of their lives. This was my entire point - we could move a couple of people in a Fiat 500 and get 43mpg, in 1957. Without the incentives I mentioned in my first post, we could easily make an engine much more efficient than that, and fixable.
        ppf 5y ago
- theshrike79 5y ago
  My diesel and petrol cars really didn't like longer -30C weathers. The oil turns into mush and the poor 12V battery can't hold a charge. It was a roll of the dice every morning whether I could go to work each day. With an electric car, I sit in the car, press a button and it works. The cabin is hot within 5-10 minutes. Compared to my diesel, which started blowing hot air to the cabin around the time I was already at the office :D
  - busterarm 5y ago
    You had -30C winters and no engine block heater and battery tenders/jump kits? Electric cars only really work at sedan weight/form-factor right now. Most people who need to drive in extreme climates aren't really city drivers and typically need more capable types of vehicles to go with the terrain...if not all out industrial vehicles entirely. Heavy equipment like that isn't even viable with electric vehicles yet.
    - nickik 5y ago
      > Electric cars only really work at sedan weight/form-factor right now. Complete nonsense. SUV/CUV are by far most new models. All major manufactures have pick-up programs for next year. > Most people who need to drive in extreme climates aren't really city drivers and typically need more capable types of vehicles to go with the terrain...if not all out industrial vehicles entirely. They guy who has bought the most Teslas lives on the arctic circles. EV are incredibly popular in Norway and also the other nordic places. EV are very popular in Switzerland where we have high mountains, and go skiing there all the time. Apparently it works for all of those people. But I guess people the state go on 500 mile expeditions to Alaska multiple times a month. > Heavy equipment like that isn't even viable with electric vehicles yet. Seems like your are moving the goal post pretty fast. By far most people that don't live in cities drive normal CUV/sedan/hatchbacks.
      - busterarm 5y ago
        > SUV/CUV are by far most new models. And are not work trucks. They also don't weigh much different from your average luxury 4-door sedan these days. Well-civilized places like you are talking about are not really extreme environments.
nickik 5y ago
> Petrol cars have significantly longer driving range, which is important for transport efficiency. 95%+ you charge at home or at work and a single fully charged battery is by far enough for daily use. > Petrol cars are significantly cheaper to buy. Life-time analysis of anything but very cheap cars this doesn't really hold up. > Petrol cars refuel significantly faster than electronic cars recharge. Not relevant most of the time. If you actually road trip long distances most experience reports suggest that even just going to the bathroom and eating is enough to recharge enough to get to the next stop. Very few people use their petrol cars to do road-trips in a way where the natural stops are not enough. > Petrol cars don't have a costly battery which degrades over time Petrol cars have much higher maintenance cost and an engine that degrades over time. If you take minimal care of your battery it will hold up for multiple 100k miles and even after that it will have significant resale value. > and pollutes. Far less then petrol.
- zhdc1 5y ago
  > 95%+ you charge at home or at work and a single fully charged battery is by far enough for daily use. Less than 35% of people in the EU live in detached houses. A sizable percentage of these either rent or don't have enclosed parking. My guess is that only about half of the population, once you factor in people who live in apartments but have separate enclosed parking spots, have the opportunity to charge an electric vehicle at home. This is probably optimistic. However, once you consider that the ratio of apartments and alternative housing <-> detached houses increases in highly populated areas, I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage of people who live in an urban area, are able to spend 20-30K+ on an electric car, and have access to convenient overnight charging is significantly less than 50%.
  - nickik 5y ago
    Not the whole population has cars either, specially in cities. Adding Level 1 charger to outside parking spots is not very difficult and is already happening in many new developments. Lots of people in cities park in parking garages where adding charging is easy to add any often still exists. Charging at work places is also very possible and industrial area parking are adding these. For people who drive long distance often in cities, going to a supercharger once in a while is also quite possible. Specially as Tesla and other increasingly add DC chargers in cities. Its overall one of the bigger problems and that does limit EV however we are at 2%, nowhere even remotely close to be limited by that. However overall I agree, this is actually the area where states, cities and so on can actually make an impact. This will solve itself when people start to want EV and try to figure out what the solution for their situation is.
DoingIsLearning 5y ago
I really really wanted to disagree with you and bash on ICE's. But then I thought about it and this article's guilt trip is the type of hostility against 'carbon emitting' consumers that is also part of the problem in our fight for survival (and for the survival of whoever is left behind after we are gone). It is the same lazy strategy as Coca-Cola making you feel guilty about not recycling the plastic they created or BP going on twitter asking people what is their 'climate pledge'. If we are serious about this fight for survival then governments and Energy industry need to replace Coal and Natural Gas for something else non-hydrocarbon based ASAP and stop Oil & Gas Energy subsidies. Then there is moral ground to ask consumers to feel guilty about their ICE emissions.
- voisin 5y ago
  I think this is the key. The solutions should not be pushed onto individuals when the problems were created by companies and governments that systematically eliminated public transit in favour of parking lots and highways and sprawl.
wilgertvelinga 5y ago
- Very few trips are long enough to deplete an EVs battery - EVs have significantly lower Total Costs of Ownership - To refuel your petrol car, you have to make an extra trip to the petrol station. While your EV is simply charged where it is parked overnight - The extraction, refinement and transportation of petrol pollutes way more than that EV battery will
- fileeditview 5y ago
  > - Very few trips are long enough to deplete an EVs battery Ever drive to vacation by car? Or visit relatives a few hours away? Not all of our trips are inner-city or in a similarly small radius. So if you don't want 2 cars, electric is not an option. > - EVs have significantly lower Total Costs of Ownership Doesn't help with them being way more expensive in acquisition. There is also no used car market for them AFAIK. This will all change in the future but currently they are no option for many people just because of the price. > - To refuel your petrol car, you have to make an extra trip to the petrol station. While your EV is simply charged where it is parked overnight At least in theory.. in practice you maybe use a big garage shared with others and it does not have any sockets. > - The extraction, refinement and transportation of petrol pollutes way more than that EV battery will Nice claim but I doubt that. It's always hard to do these comparisons fairly but battery manufacturing and disposal is very dirty business.
  - wilgertvelinga 5y ago
    -- you could rent a petrol car for your vacation trip once a year, or make a charging and sleeping stop, or use fast chargers along the route (also not yet available everywhere) -- you could private lease an electric car -- I agree that it is not an option for everybody, everywhere. But with a little effort it will be for a lot of people in a lot of places -- See this video for a comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oVrIHcdxjA&t=2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oVrIHcdxjA&t=2s p.s. nice nickname
    - falcolas 5y ago
      Renting is absurdly expensive for any vacation distances. Around a hundred dollars a day, plus mileage (enterprise is, for example, 100 miles per day, and 10¢ for each mile after). Might as well buy a used car for those prices.

busterarm 5y ago

Petrol cars actually work in extreme climates.

6f8986c3 5y ago
Petrol cars can be easily fixed in a driveway.
- Causality1 5y ago
  This comment does not deserve downvotes. Tesla is every bit as anti-hobbyist as Apple or John Deere.
  - nickik 5y ago
    Did you know that Tesla is not the only EV company?
    - Causality1 5y ago
      Tesla is 80% of the US BEV market. Which manufacturers make their electric vehicles easy to work on?
      - nickik 5y ago
        No current company makes any of their modern cars deliberately easy to work on. No matter the %, the fact is you can get a car from VW, BMW, Daimler, Hyundai, Nissan and so on.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  Not a modern one. An outdated, inefficient one, sure. But not one that is actually built to be efficient.
  - ppf 5y ago
    The Fiat 500 from 1957 got 43mpg. Imagine what could be done, if car manufacturers were not focussed on the lease market, meeting the newest emissions regulations (more relevant in Europe), and filling cars with electronic toys.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      Renault Twingo III gets 66 mpg, while having much more space and being generally more useful.
      - ppf 5y ago
        Yep, there are modern engines that will do that. I was using the example of an older engine, because they are generally much more fixable (which was OP's original point).
        user-the-name 5y ago
        But my point is, the equivalent today gets a lot better milage, and the reason why has lots to do with why it is not fixable.
        ppf 5y ago
        Yes, modern engines are optimised for fuel and emissions efficiency to within an inch of their lives. This was my entire point - we could move a couple of people in a Fiat 500 and get 43mpg, in 1957. Without the incentives I mentioned in my first post, we could easily make an engine much more efficient than that, and fixable.
        ppf 5y ago
theshrike79 5y ago
My diesel and petrol cars really didn't like longer -30C weathers. The oil turns into mush and the poor 12V battery can't hold a charge. It was a roll of the dice every morning whether I could go to work each day. With an electric car, I sit in the car, press a button and it works. The cabin is hot within 5-10 minutes. Compared to my diesel, which started blowing hot air to the cabin around the time I was already at the office :D
- busterarm 5y ago
  You had -30C winters and no engine block heater and battery tenders/jump kits? Electric cars only really work at sedan weight/form-factor right now. Most people who need to drive in extreme climates aren't really city drivers and typically need more capable types of vehicles to go with the terrain...if not all out industrial vehicles entirely. Heavy equipment like that isn't even viable with electric vehicles yet.
  - nickik 5y ago
    > Electric cars only really work at sedan weight/form-factor right now. Complete nonsense. SUV/CUV are by far most new models. All major manufactures have pick-up programs for next year. > Most people who need to drive in extreme climates aren't really city drivers and typically need more capable types of vehicles to go with the terrain...if not all out industrial vehicles entirely. They guy who has bought the most Teslas lives on the arctic circles. EV are incredibly popular in Norway and also the other nordic places. EV are very popular in Switzerland where we have high mountains, and go skiing there all the time. Apparently it works for all of those people. But I guess people the state go on 500 mile expeditions to Alaska multiple times a month. > Heavy equipment like that isn't even viable with electric vehicles yet. Seems like your are moving the goal post pretty fast. By far most people that don't live in cities drive normal CUV/sedan/hatchbacks.
    - busterarm 5y ago
      > SUV/CUV are by far most new models. And are not work trucks. They also don't weigh much different from your average luxury 4-door sedan these days. Well-civilized places like you are talking about are not really extreme environments.

nickik 5y ago

> Petrol cars have significantly longer driving range, which is important for transport efficiency. 95%+ you charge at home or at work and a single fully charged battery is by far enough for daily use. > Petrol cars are significantly cheaper to buy. Life-time analysis of anything but very cheap cars this doesn't really hold up. > Petrol cars refuel significantly faster than electronic cars recharge. Not relevant most of the time. If you actually road trip long distances most experience reports suggest that even just going to the bathroom and eating is enough to recharge enough to get to the next stop. Very few people use their petrol cars to do road-trips in a way where the natural stops are not enough. > Petrol cars don't have a costly battery which degrades over time Petrol cars have much higher maintenance cost and an engine that degrades over time. If you take minimal care of your battery it will hold up for multiple 100k miles and even after that it will have significant resale value. > and pollutes. Far less then petrol.

zhdc1 5y ago
> 95%+ you charge at home or at work and a single fully charged battery is by far enough for daily use. Less than 35% of people in the EU live in detached houses. A sizable percentage of these either rent or don't have enclosed parking. My guess is that only about half of the population, once you factor in people who live in apartments but have separate enclosed parking spots, have the opportunity to charge an electric vehicle at home. This is probably optimistic. However, once you consider that the ratio of apartments and alternative housing <-> detached houses increases in highly populated areas, I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage of people who live in an urban area, are able to spend 20-30K+ on an electric car, and have access to convenient overnight charging is significantly less than 50%.
- nickik 5y ago
  Not the whole population has cars either, specially in cities. Adding Level 1 charger to outside parking spots is not very difficult and is already happening in many new developments. Lots of people in cities park in parking garages where adding charging is easy to add any often still exists. Charging at work places is also very possible and industrial area parking are adding these. For people who drive long distance often in cities, going to a supercharger once in a while is also quite possible. Specially as Tesla and other increasingly add DC chargers in cities. Its overall one of the bigger problems and that does limit EV however we are at 2%, nowhere even remotely close to be limited by that. However overall I agree, this is actually the area where states, cities and so on can actually make an impact. This will solve itself when people start to want EV and try to figure out what the solution for their situation is.

DoingIsLearning 5y ago

I really really wanted to disagree with you and bash on ICE's. But then I thought about it and this article's guilt trip is the type of hostility against 'carbon emitting' consumers that is also part of the problem in our fight for survival (and for the survival of whoever is left behind after we are gone). It is the same lazy strategy as Coca-Cola making you feel guilty about not recycling the plastic they created or BP going on twitter asking people what is their 'climate pledge'. If we are serious about this fight for survival then governments and Energy industry need to replace Coal and Natural Gas for something else non-hydrocarbon based ASAP and stop Oil & Gas Energy subsidies. Then there is moral ground to ask consumers to feel guilty about their ICE emissions.

voisin 5y ago
I think this is the key. The solutions should not be pushed onto individuals when the problems were created by companies and governments that systematically eliminated public transit in favour of parking lots and highways and sprawl.

wilgertvelinga 5y ago

- Very few trips are long enough to deplete an EVs battery - EVs have significantly lower Total Costs of Ownership - To refuel your petrol car, you have to make an extra trip to the petrol station. While your EV is simply charged where it is parked overnight - The extraction, refinement and transportation of petrol pollutes way more than that EV battery will

fileeditview 5y ago
> - Very few trips are long enough to deplete an EVs battery Ever drive to vacation by car? Or visit relatives a few hours away? Not all of our trips are inner-city or in a similarly small radius. So if you don't want 2 cars, electric is not an option. > - EVs have significantly lower Total Costs of Ownership Doesn't help with them being way more expensive in acquisition. There is also no used car market for them AFAIK. This will all change in the future but currently they are no option for many people just because of the price. > - To refuel your petrol car, you have to make an extra trip to the petrol station. While your EV is simply charged where it is parked overnight At least in theory.. in practice you maybe use a big garage shared with others and it does not have any sockets. > - The extraction, refinement and transportation of petrol pollutes way more than that EV battery will Nice claim but I doubt that. It's always hard to do these comparisons fairly but battery manufacturing and disposal is very dirty business.
- wilgertvelinga 5y ago
  -- you could rent a petrol car for your vacation trip once a year, or make a charging and sleeping stop, or use fast chargers along the route (also not yet available everywhere) -- you could private lease an electric car -- I agree that it is not an option for everybody, everywhere. But with a little effort it will be for a lot of people in a lot of places -- See this video for a comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oVrIHcdxjA&t=2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oVrIHcdxjA&t=2s p.s. nice nickname
  - falcolas 5y ago
    Renting is absurdly expensive for any vacation distances. Around a hundred dollars a day, plus mileage (enterprise is, for example, 100 miles per day, and 10¢ for each mile after). Might as well buy a used car for those prices.