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It depends on what oil. Margins in Saudi fields like Ghawar are enormous and costs are as low as $5 a barrel. By contrast American shale oil extracted via frack

It depends on what oil. Margins in Saudi fields like Ghawar are enormous and costs are as low as $5 a barrel. By contrast American shale oil extracted via fracking can cost up to $30 a barrel.

tinco 5y ago
Thanks, so at $30 that would be about $0.017/kWh right? The most competitive high efficiency windmills right now are producing at $0.030/kWh. So the most expensive form of extracting oil is about twice as cheap as the cheapest form of renewable energy right now. I'm not sure if I'm being downvoted because of my hyperbole, or my negativity or people really disagree with me. I'm really not trying to be negative, I just feel that it's important we're spending our effort where it's most needed, and that's political change. If you put a 50% subsidy on wind energy, you might put the fracking industry out of business, or if you put a 100% carbon tax on oil, same effect. That's a simple thing we could do right now, just a couple words on paper and it would change the world for the better more than any engineering project right now (except maybe fusion).
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  Not really accurate. $30/barrel is $0.017/kWh in terms of THERMAL energy, but that’s high entropy whereas wind energy is low entropy (electricity). To get that oil’s thermal energy into low entropy energy, you need to burn it and run some sort of heat engine, which throws about half to two-thirds of the energy away, so in low-entropy equivalent (ie electrical or mechanical energy), that oil costs $0.034-0.051/kWh. Not only that, but some solar farms have costs as low as $0.016-$0.018/kWh before subsidies: https://www.pv-tech.org/bids-of-us0-0162-kwh-emerge-as-saudi-arabia-shortlists-firms-for-1-47gw-sol/ https://www.pv-tech.org/bids-of-us0-0162-kwh-emerge-as-saudi...
  - tinco 5y ago
    Alright, so under some conditions the worst price for oil is competitive with the best price for solar. I know it's important to correct me, and obviously I should've expanded on the fact that it's thermal energy to make it more fair, but nit picking on my argument doesn't change the story. Apparently Saudi Arabia can get oil at $5/barrel, so that's a factor 6 we're still off by. I fully agree, if it can be done in Saudi Arabia, it can probably also be done in Death Valley or some other nice sunny area reasonably close to a large population, and it will help a lot. I just fear that regardless of what we or anyone wants to pay, Saudi Arabia is still going to be wanting to sell it as long as it's over $5/barrel.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      The regime that makes $5/barrel costs feasible is not politically stable at $5/barrel. The real social minimum acceptable price for oil in Saudi Arabia is MUCH higher than $5/barrel.
- deepnotderp 5y ago
  That's thermal energy not electricity out. Natural gas is a better point, at 5.4 cents per kwh of baseload it squishes any renewables (3 cents/kwh for solar in a desert doesn't provide round the clock energy anywhere in the world). It's also very clean in anything but co2
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    Even better is to solar, wind, and gas.

It depends on what oil. Margins in Saudi fields like Ghawar are enormous and costs are as low as $5 a barrel. By contrast American shale oil extracted via fracking can cost up to $30 a barrel.

tinco 5y ago

Thanks, so at $30 that would be about $0.017/kWh right? The most competitive high efficiency windmills right now are producing at $0.030/kWh. So the most expensive form of extracting oil is about twice as cheap as the cheapest form of renewable energy right now. I'm not sure if I'm being downvoted because of my hyperbole, or my negativity or people really disagree with me. I'm really not trying to be negative, I just feel that it's important we're spending our effort where it's most needed, and that's political change. If you put a 50% subsidy on wind energy, you might put the fracking industry out of business, or if you put a 100% carbon tax on oil, same effect. That's a simple thing we could do right now, just a couple words on paper and it would change the world for the better more than any engineering project right now (except maybe fusion).

Robotbeat 5y ago
Not really accurate. $30/barrel is $0.017/kWh in terms of THERMAL energy, but that’s high entropy whereas wind energy is low entropy (electricity). To get that oil’s thermal energy into low entropy energy, you need to burn it and run some sort of heat engine, which throws about half to two-thirds of the energy away, so in low-entropy equivalent (ie electrical or mechanical energy), that oil costs $0.034-0.051/kWh. Not only that, but some solar farms have costs as low as $0.016-$0.018/kWh before subsidies: https://www.pv-tech.org/bids-of-us0-0162-kwh-emerge-as-saudi-arabia-shortlists-firms-for-1-47gw-sol/ https://www.pv-tech.org/bids-of-us0-0162-kwh-emerge-as-saudi...
- tinco 5y ago
  Alright, so under some conditions the worst price for oil is competitive with the best price for solar. I know it's important to correct me, and obviously I should've expanded on the fact that it's thermal energy to make it more fair, but nit picking on my argument doesn't change the story. Apparently Saudi Arabia can get oil at $5/barrel, so that's a factor 6 we're still off by. I fully agree, if it can be done in Saudi Arabia, it can probably also be done in Death Valley or some other nice sunny area reasonably close to a large population, and it will help a lot. I just fear that regardless of what we or anyone wants to pay, Saudi Arabia is still going to be wanting to sell it as long as it's over $5/barrel.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    The regime that makes $5/barrel costs feasible is not politically stable at $5/barrel. The real social minimum acceptable price for oil in Saudi Arabia is MUCH higher than $5/barrel.
deepnotderp 5y ago
That's thermal energy not electricity out. Natural gas is a better point, at 5.4 cents per kwh of baseload it squishes any renewables (3 cents/kwh for solar in a desert doesn't provide round the clock energy anywhere in the world). It's also very clean in anything but co2
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  Even better is to solar, wind, and gas.