5 ms·

Chine has nailed execution at the highest level, no doubt. But it is not yet an innovation machine. They are consistently a step behind in technological capabi

by gpt5 5y ago

Chine has nailed execution at the highest level, no doubt. But it is not yet an innovation machine. They are consistently a step behind in technological capabilities. This is not just in space technologies, it is hard to find areas where China invented and refined something truly innovative first. Happy to be convinced otherwise with counter examples.

stfp 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions
- gpt5 5y ago
  Given that the "Modern (1912-present)" section has just 7 inventions, and relatively minor I think that this link actually backs up my case of lack of innovation coming from modern China.
jazzyjackson 5y ago
People don't seem to appreciate the innovation involved in lowering the cost of manufacture. Is there nothing innovative about building out a nationwide network of bullet trains? Have you seen the machines they build bridges with? They ain't buying them from Germany.
- someperson 5y ago
  Chinese bullet trains are based on tech transfer from Western (and Japanese) firms. They famously forgot didn't implement the signalling protocol which caused the 2011 Wenzhou high speed train head-on collision.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    There are recent advances in maglev tech that came out of China, such as REBCO maglev trains, which can in theory allow for much higher speeds.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
      Let's see how that works out. Last I've read in a timeframe from some weeks ago is that they finally start building a test track somewhere. I'm torn. Sure it would be a cool thing to have. They'd outdo all the hyped hyperloops. OTOH they maybe come to the same conclusions as...errr...others before, that it makes no sense economically, especially if you already have a large HSR network capable of operating at +300kph. With REBCO or not. I mean, they tested that Transrapid thing in Shanghai. While 'cool', that wasn't expanded. Remains to be seen if that changes.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        I've got some hope - REBCO is so much cheaper than any other superconducting material, and China really needs even more trains to offset from air traffic.
        LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        But does it scale? In the volume needed to equip the trains and tracks with it? Isn't it brittle? Doesn't it need so called rare earths, which are already in much demand for all sorts of electrification in all sectors due to decarbonization?
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        It does scale amazingly, and it is much cheaper than existing superconductors. It does require rare earths, but China has the capacity to scale up production tremendously and supply is not really threatened as of now. YCBO is indeed brittle, but that's not a huge issue for maglev. It's pretty much superior in every way to existing materials, from supply to scale. The biggest issue with YBCO is the low critical current, but actually the higher the speed of the train the lesser the required current.
graderjs 5y ago
This thread is probably off topic and i don't share the GP view that people here were overly in denial, I see people discussing the mission, but I'll make a point anyway. Mobile payment processing. TikTok. Governance. Chinese cuisine. Gunpowder. Which were then copied elsewhere. It's fair enough in some areas to say China copied, and stole tech (basic manufacturing initially, advanced fighter planes), but as a general characteristic to say "all China does is imitate not innovate", i think that's: a tired old inaccurate trope, blinds you to see achievements, prevents you from improving but comforting you and making you feel better about you own increasingly relatively less impressive achievements as a result. It's not too much of a problem, but in general, is good for everyone to be clear eyed about what's actually going on: good if you want up appreciate and respect China, good if you want to compete or battle with China. I find this trope, (understandable as it is because people recieve a biased view via media, and are incentivized to believe that because China's rise looks scary), part of the Western canon of comfort narratives that really shoot the West in the foot. When China was rapidly growing, they didn't look at the West and say, "oh they're so inferior, our culture is way more advanced than them," they hungrily absorbed everything that works to learn and grow. I think it's time the West shows a bit of humility and starts learning from China in areas where that works. It's not every area but the two cultures certainly can learn from each other in many ways.
- gpt5 5y ago
  Chinese Cuisine and Gunpowder are not modern China innovations, and I'm not sure how to comment on the governance side. TikTok: Check out Musical.ly screenshots which is the US app the was bought by ByteDance, all the foundation was already there https://www.google.com/search?q=musically+screenshot https://www.google.com/search?q=musically+screenshot Are these really the best examples?
  - rfoo 5y ago
    Sure, and all the foundations was also already in Vine. /s By the way, Toutiao was a thing way before ByteDance acquiring Musical.ly.
  - 411111111111111 5y ago
xputer 5y ago
Much of the US technology sector runs on Chinese immigrants...
vmception 5y ago
The distinction you are going for doesn't matter to me I can respect any organization or individual that plays the cards they were dealt Here, they have an efficient innovation consolidation engine and political will and resources and are executing on it Who cares what “they” - a private person or the government - invented. Its the actions that are important and interesting here.
- gpt5 5y ago
  It does matter. If you are always a step behind, can you really be the leader? it also raises the point of why is innovation lacking in China? Is it because of a culture of less openness and information sharing, or is it just a matter of time (i.e. they were catching up, now they'll start leading)
  - vmception 5y ago
    I don’t consider innovation to be lacking in China. This is just a point and distinction that you fixate on. I see innovation and consolidation of innovations abroad. I think its important to recognize that a well functioning China doesn’t actually have to consider the egos of other economic unions. And their entire diplomatic relations are just placating the egos of the United States with continual reassurances that China doesn't have an expansionist policy (aside from already unresolved borders) despite its growing GDP, influence and strength making the US feel threatened. Have skepticism about that, but also recognize that it doesnt matter. China has 4x the population and should have 4x the GDP no matter how that makes another country feel. This likely means greater influence worldwide, just as the entire last millennium has played out for every other empire, and it likely means our expectations and rights will have to adapt to theirs, no matter how that makes you feel. Reaching that area means “hey, maybe lets do space exploration, hey single party system approve all necessary funding with no deliberation, ok thanks, done.” and they were forward thinking enough to do it by the 100th anniversary day. To answer your actual question, I see a lot of innovation in Shenzhen and Guangzhou. I see a lot of inefficiencies too. Too heavily reliant on relationships, basically nonexistent legal remedies for [intellectual] property protection, alongside a fairly omnipotent state that can roll out technology pretty quickly if the latent somewhat-communist ideals allow for that level of spending.

by gpt5 5y ago

stfp 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

gpt5 5y ago
Given that the "Modern (1912-present)" section has just 7 inventions, and relatively minor I think that this link actually backs up my case of lack of innovation coming from modern China.

jazzyjackson 5y ago

People don't seem to appreciate the innovation involved in lowering the cost of manufacture. Is there nothing innovative about building out a nationwide network of bullet trains? Have you seen the machines they build bridges with? They ain't buying them from Germany.

someperson 5y ago
Chinese bullet trains are based on tech transfer from Western (and Japanese) firms. They famously forgot didn't implement the signalling protocol which caused the 2011 Wenzhou high speed train head-on collision.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  There are recent advances in maglev tech that came out of China, such as REBCO maglev trains, which can in theory allow for much higher speeds.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
    Let's see how that works out. Last I've read in a timeframe from some weeks ago is that they finally start building a test track somewhere. I'm torn. Sure it would be a cool thing to have. They'd outdo all the hyped hyperloops. OTOH they maybe come to the same conclusions as...errr...others before, that it makes no sense economically, especially if you already have a large HSR network capable of operating at +300kph. With REBCO or not. I mean, they tested that Transrapid thing in Shanghai. While 'cool', that wasn't expanded. Remains to be seen if that changes.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      I've got some hope - REBCO is so much cheaper than any other superconducting material, and China really needs even more trains to offset from air traffic.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
        But does it scale? In the volume needed to equip the trains and tracks with it? Isn't it brittle? Doesn't it need so called rare earths, which are already in much demand for all sorts of electrification in all sectors due to decarbonization?
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        It does scale amazingly, and it is much cheaper than existing superconductors. It does require rare earths, but China has the capacity to scale up production tremendously and supply is not really threatened as of now. YCBO is indeed brittle, but that's not a huge issue for maglev. It's pretty much superior in every way to existing materials, from supply to scale. The biggest issue with YBCO is the low critical current, but actually the higher the speed of the train the lesser the required current.

graderjs 5y ago

This thread is probably off topic and i don't share the GP view that people here were overly in denial, I see people discussing the mission, but I'll make a point anyway. Mobile payment processing. TikTok. Governance. Chinese cuisine. Gunpowder. Which were then copied elsewhere. It's fair enough in some areas to say China copied, and stole tech (basic manufacturing initially, advanced fighter planes), but as a general characteristic to say "all China does is imitate not innovate", i think that's: a tired old inaccurate trope, blinds you to see achievements, prevents you from improving but comforting you and making you feel better about you own increasingly relatively less impressive achievements as a result. It's not too much of a problem, but in general, is good for everyone to be clear eyed about what's actually going on: good if you want up appreciate and respect China, good if you want to compete or battle with China. I find this trope, (understandable as it is because people recieve a biased view via media, and are incentivized to believe that because China's rise looks scary), part of the Western canon of comfort narratives that really shoot the West in the foot. When China was rapidly growing, they didn't look at the West and say, "oh they're so inferior, our culture is way more advanced than them," they hungrily absorbed everything that works to learn and grow. I think it's time the West shows a bit of humility and starts learning from China in areas where that works. It's not every area but the two cultures certainly can learn from each other in many ways.

gpt5 5y ago
Chinese Cuisine and Gunpowder are not modern China innovations, and I'm not sure how to comment on the governance side. TikTok: Check out Musical.ly screenshots which is the US app the was bought by ByteDance, all the foundation was already there https://www.google.com/search?q=musically+screenshot https://www.google.com/search?q=musically+screenshot Are these really the best examples?
- rfoo 5y ago
  Sure, and all the foundations was also already in Vine. /s By the way, Toutiao was a thing way before ByteDance acquiring Musical.ly.
- 411111111111111 5y ago

xputer 5y ago

Much of the US technology sector runs on Chinese immigrants...

vmception 5y ago

The distinction you are going for doesn't matter to me I can respect any organization or individual that plays the cards they were dealt Here, they have an efficient innovation consolidation engine and political will and resources and are executing on it Who cares what “they” - a private person or the government - invented. Its the actions that are important and interesting here.

gpt5 5y ago
It does matter. If you are always a step behind, can you really be the leader? it also raises the point of why is innovation lacking in China? Is it because of a culture of less openness and information sharing, or is it just a matter of time (i.e. they were catching up, now they'll start leading)
- vmception 5y ago
  I don’t consider innovation to be lacking in China. This is just a point and distinction that you fixate on. I see innovation and consolidation of innovations abroad. I think its important to recognize that a well functioning China doesn’t actually have to consider the egos of other economic unions. And their entire diplomatic relations are just placating the egos of the United States with continual reassurances that China doesn't have an expansionist policy (aside from already unresolved borders) despite its growing GDP, influence and strength making the US feel threatened. Have skepticism about that, but also recognize that it doesnt matter. China has 4x the population and should have 4x the GDP no matter how that makes another country feel. This likely means greater influence worldwide, just as the entire last millennium has played out for every other empire, and it likely means our expectations and rights will have to adapt to theirs, no matter how that makes you feel. Reaching that area means “hey, maybe lets do space exploration, hey single party system approve all necessary funding with no deliberation, ok thanks, done.” and they were forward thinking enough to do it by the 100th anniversary day. To answer your actual question, I see a lot of innovation in Shenzhen and Guangzhou. I see a lot of inefficiencies too. Too heavily reliant on relationships, basically nonexistent legal remedies for [intellectual] property protection, alongside a fairly omnipotent state that can roll out technology pretty quickly if the latent somewhat-communist ideals allow for that level of spending.