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Where are the developers implementing this stuff on large social media, especially Reddit who had such a user friendly founding? Surely they're here on HN. I'd

by vimax 5y ago

Where are the developers implementing this stuff on large social media, especially Reddit who had such a user friendly founding? Surely they're here on HN. I'd love to hear their thinking in going along with this, assuming it's something better than "fuck the users I want to get paid." How do you join the dev team for a service you like and use, and then knowingly destroy it?

bserge 5y ago
Hey, I would if 1. I got paid for it; 2. I'd justify it with "fuck this platform, everyone should go back to individual websites/blogs/forums".
- jraph 5y ago
  Sabotage by executing the given orders?
bob1029 5y ago
> How do you join the dev team for a service you like and use, and then knowingly destroy it? You start with priorities that are fucked up before you even interviewed for the job. The world of today is not like the world of 10+ years ago. In 2001, if you met a developer, there was an exceptionally high % chance that they were fundamentally into technology in a very deep & personal way. In 2021, you will find that most people in technology see it for the cash cow that it is and utilize it accordingly. I would say that maybe 10-20% of the tech employees today actually give a fuck about these sorts of things. The rest just want their paycheck and as many other benefits as they can obtain. Raising a stink over dark patterns is not a good idea if you don't bring a whole lot of other meaningful value to the table.
- shrimpx 5y ago
  I think this is because "tech" is quickly becoming a business utility, and every company is becoming a "tech company" just by augmenting its business with an app stack. "Tech" has become watered-down by proliferating everywhere, and accordingly developers have grown in number and diminished in average passion and skill. Coupled with this, everyone knows these tech-driven ad-distribution companies posing as "social media" are pretty shady, because they're based on coyly mining user attention for $. So I you get a job there, your moral bar is low enough that a dark pattern here and there is no big deal.
  - dont__panic 5y ago
    It is a losing and neverending battle, too -- new C-levels come into your company, new managers and directors cycle in, perpetually looking for low-hanging fruit to up usage and profitability in their fiefdom at the expense of long-term goals and faithful users. You can explain once or twice how you're not going to implement some dark pattern, but what about the tenth time? Or the hundredth? Or the thousandth? And even if you manage to block it every single time, that same rot in the company will eventually wear down other reasons you'd like to work at the company, whether it's compensation or cool underlying tech or culture or remote-friendliness, and then you'll leave, and who will stop the dark patterns now?
fleddr 5y ago
The word "destroy" is questionable. These types of user-hostile patterns may in fact be needed to secure revenue or to exist at all. The standard internet user doesn't pay for anything and increasingly blocks ads. That's why these patterns exist. Surely it would feel uneasy to developers with a passion for UX, but there's nothing you can do about it. Go ahead and quit, it's not going to be very hard to find another developer willing to do it for 200K.
VRay 5y ago
Good news, my friend, you can see their sentiment right here in this very thread! Scroll up or down and feast your eyes. My personal story: When I interviewed for a job at Amazon many years ago, all the recruiter e-mail kept going into my trash. I finally realized that I'd just directed *@amazon.com into my trash years earlier because they kept filling my inbox with so much useless bullshit, and I'd always hated the company. Turned out, though, that when presented with the chance to make twice as much money by working half as hard, those feelings became very malleable.. "Well, we're a bunch of assholes, but nice guys finish last" Really, I'm just following orders every day at my job
- dont__panic 5y ago
  Ah, the old "destroy it from the inside" strategy. Except instead of actively fighting anything, you recognize that rotting the company from the inside out with apathy while collecting the beefiest paycheck possible is your strongest weapon. Bold strategy. Though I have to wonder if weaponizing your career in that way has dangerous implications for your self-esteem?
  - VRay 5y ago
    haha, where'd you get the idea that I'm fighting back? No, my friend, I put on my jackboots and my company logo t-shirt and give 100% every day Really, people benefit when I rob them of their privacy

by vimax 5y ago

bserge 5y ago

Hey, I would if 1. I got paid for it; 2. I'd justify it with "fuck this platform, everyone should go back to individual websites/blogs/forums".

jraph 5y ago
Sabotage by executing the given orders?

bob1029 5y ago

> How do you join the dev team for a service you like and use, and then knowingly destroy it? You start with priorities that are fucked up before you even interviewed for the job. The world of today is not like the world of 10+ years ago. In 2001, if you met a developer, there was an exceptionally high % chance that they were fundamentally into technology in a very deep & personal way. In 2021, you will find that most people in technology see it for the cash cow that it is and utilize it accordingly. I would say that maybe 10-20% of the tech employees today actually give a fuck about these sorts of things. The rest just want their paycheck and as many other benefits as they can obtain. Raising a stink over dark patterns is not a good idea if you don't bring a whole lot of other meaningful value to the table.

shrimpx 5y ago
I think this is because "tech" is quickly becoming a business utility, and every company is becoming a "tech company" just by augmenting its business with an app stack. "Tech" has become watered-down by proliferating everywhere, and accordingly developers have grown in number and diminished in average passion and skill. Coupled with this, everyone knows these tech-driven ad-distribution companies posing as "social media" are pretty shady, because they're based on coyly mining user attention for $. So I you get a job there, your moral bar is low enough that a dark pattern here and there is no big deal.
- dont__panic 5y ago
  It is a losing and neverending battle, too -- new C-levels come into your company, new managers and directors cycle in, perpetually looking for low-hanging fruit to up usage and profitability in their fiefdom at the expense of long-term goals and faithful users. You can explain once or twice how you're not going to implement some dark pattern, but what about the tenth time? Or the hundredth? Or the thousandth? And even if you manage to block it every single time, that same rot in the company will eventually wear down other reasons you'd like to work at the company, whether it's compensation or cool underlying tech or culture or remote-friendliness, and then you'll leave, and who will stop the dark patterns now?

fleddr 5y ago

The word "destroy" is questionable. These types of user-hostile patterns may in fact be needed to secure revenue or to exist at all. The standard internet user doesn't pay for anything and increasingly blocks ads. That's why these patterns exist. Surely it would feel uneasy to developers with a passion for UX, but there's nothing you can do about it. Go ahead and quit, it's not going to be very hard to find another developer willing to do it for 200K.

VRay 5y ago

Good news, my friend, you can see their sentiment right here in this very thread! Scroll up or down and feast your eyes. My personal story: When I interviewed for a job at Amazon many years ago, all the recruiter e-mail kept going into my trash. I finally realized that I'd just directed *@amazon.com into my trash years earlier because they kept filling my inbox with so much useless bullshit, and I'd always hated the company. Turned out, though, that when presented with the chance to make twice as much money by working half as hard, those feelings became very malleable.. "Well, we're a bunch of assholes, but nice guys finish last" Really, I'm just following orders every day at my job

dont__panic 5y ago
Ah, the old "destroy it from the inside" strategy. Except instead of actively fighting anything, you recognize that rotting the company from the inside out with apathy while collecting the beefiest paycheck possible is your strongest weapon. Bold strategy. Though I have to wonder if weaponizing your career in that way has dangerous implications for your self-esteem?
- VRay 5y ago
  haha, where'd you get the idea that I'm fighting back? No, my friend, I put on my jackboots and my company logo t-shirt and give 100% every day Really, people benefit when I rob them of their privacy