4 ms·

It might be tiring but it is also important. Believe or not, whatever we (people, collectively) decide to allow or disallow is very likely going to profoundly

It might be tiring but it is also important. Believe or not, whatever we (people, collectively) decide to allow or disallow is very likely going to profoundly affect shape of freedom of expression for future generations.

dragontamer 5y ago
Here's my problem. If a developer (lets say, Koei Tecmo games), decides to make a video game (such as Dead or Alive 6) slightly less sexy than a previous video game (such as Dead or Alive 5), is that "censorship" ?? Or is this a *COMPLETELY DIFFERENT* discussion, and the "censorship" trolls are just trying to cause outrage in a completely unrelated subject matter? Ditto with Nintendo and their treatment of Pyra & Mythra in Xenogears vs Smash Ultimate. Its like Smash Ultimate is aimed at a younger audience, so Nintendo wanted those characters to have slightly less sex appeal in Smash Ultimate, while having slightly more sex appeal in Xenogears. So yelling "censorship" at the top of your lungs because you don't like Pyra's tights in Smash Ultimate is just... counterproductive. (For those unaware: The original character design doesn't have tights, so she shows a bit more thigh in Xenogears. So the controversy is whether or not adding the tights to Smash Ultimate is "censorship"). -------- That's the thing about "censorship". Its outrage trolling these days. You yell censorship not to make a point or to move the discussion forward. You yell it to close off the discussion and derail it. Its a troll move, not really about discussing underlying issues.
- lmilcin 5y ago
  No, making your game slightly less sexy is not censorship if it was your own choice. If you decide not to say something, this is not impinging on your freedom of speech, it is you using your freedom to make that decision. Some people call this self-censorship which I do not count as censorship. When I decide not to talk politics at the office or at home party that might be self-censorship but in reality is my own choice. Yes, censoring trolls that say vaccines are harmful is still censorship, regardless of how sure you feel about being right. Understand that any idea had to start at some point with a single person or small number of people. Women demanding their right to vote, it had to start somewhere. It also means everybody else was of another opinion. Suppressing speech, beliefs, just because you don't agree with them risks to cut those movements before they have ability to gain traction and in effect slow human progress.
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    Self-censorship is censorship. If you know stating some position (I support candidate X) is going to result in being harassed, death threats or other injury and you choose to not engage in speech, that is still being censored.
    - lmilcin 5y ago
      You made decision to not get involved in the conflict. That's not censorship. Have others been allowed to state that position? Has some body tried to suppress that speech? If yes, then they (but not you) have been subject to censorship.
      - vorpalhex 5y ago
        I was trying to remember the name for this when I wrote the original comment, and now I recall it. A chilling effect. It started as a legal concept but it applies to censorship as well. It's sufficient to count as censorship if you simply punish legal speech sufficiently that the populace self-censors. [1]: https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/897/chilling-effect https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/897/chilling-effect
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - wrycoder 5y ago
        Intimidation is an effective form of censoring.
    - wvenable 5y ago
      Speech has consequences otherwise it wouldn't be worth speaking. Whether or not you want to accept those consequences is not censorship.
      - lmilcin 5y ago
        Yeah. People forget free speech does not mean consequence-free speech.
- ttt0 5y ago
  > If a developer (lets say, Koei Tecmo games), decides to make a video game (such as Dead or Alive 6) slightly less sexy than a previous video game (such as Dead or Alive 5), is that "censorship" ?? Is it in all releases or just the US and European releases? I remember people complaining that just the Western releases of some games were censored.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Since games are basically global these days (since the Japanese version must work with the European version and must work with the USA version for online play), its a blanket decision that applies globally.
    - ttt0 5y ago
      If it's just cosmetic changes then not really. People can mod their copies, use their own models and remain compatible with others. edit: I'm rate limited, responding here: I just pointed out that versions don't have to be the same to play online. I remember people complaining that the releases were different, so I'm just asking.
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        The typical gamer can't really mod games on modern consoles like XBox Series X or PS5. Sure, a dedicated fan can do that. But when you consider the outrage is from typical people (who do not have the technical skill to implement these mods), then it makes more sense.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  Except it is censorship and it's happening because a vocal minority of Western audiences demanded it. https://nichegamer.com/2018/10/27/new-sony-censorship-policy-is-forcing-even-japanese-developers-to-censor-themselves-in-japan/ https://nichegamer.com/2018/10/27/new-sony-censorship-policy...
AdmiralAsshat 5y ago
Possibly. But I think most of us would rather pick another hill to die on than deciding that removing visible cleavage on a hyper-sexualized 13 year-old is "censorship".[0] [0] https://kotaku.com/xenoblade-chronicles-xs-director-on-localization-change-1796157409 https://kotaku.com/xenoblade-chronicles-xs-director-on-local...
- lmilcin 5y ago
  You are not forced to comment on a HN post dedicating to censoring comments if you "would rather pick another hill to die on".
- Jiro 5y ago
  No Japanese creator is going to reply "well, I would rather that the company that pays my salary not censor me", unless they have such star power that they know they can say this with no repercussions, so I'm skeptical of such claims. Not to mention that Japanese creators often don't know much about a problem other than what the company tells them. If Nintendo tells them "we need to do this or people in the West won't buy it," the creator will believe them, and say that they don't mind the censorship because it's necessary, even if Nintendo is lying through their teeth when they say that.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Nintendo is a bad example actually, because a lot of the "sexy" games are moving to Nintendo Switch and away from Sony PS4/PS5.

dragontamer 5y ago

Here's my problem. If a developer (lets say, Koei Tecmo games), decides to make a video game (such as Dead or Alive 6) slightly less sexy than a previous video game (such as Dead or Alive 5), is that "censorship" ?? Or is this a *COMPLETELY DIFFERENT* discussion, and the "censorship" trolls are just trying to cause outrage in a completely unrelated subject matter? Ditto with Nintendo and their treatment of Pyra & Mythra in Xenogears vs Smash Ultimate. Its like Smash Ultimate is aimed at a younger audience, so Nintendo wanted those characters to have slightly less sex appeal in Smash Ultimate, while having slightly more sex appeal in Xenogears. So yelling "censorship" at the top of your lungs because you don't like Pyra's tights in Smash Ultimate is just... counterproductive. (For those unaware: The original character design doesn't have tights, so she shows a bit more thigh in Xenogears. So the controversy is whether or not adding the tights to Smash Ultimate is "censorship"). -------- That's the thing about "censorship". Its outrage trolling these days. You yell censorship not to make a point or to move the discussion forward. You yell it to close off the discussion and derail it. Its a troll move, not really about discussing underlying issues.

lmilcin 5y ago
No, making your game slightly less sexy is not censorship if it was your own choice. If you decide not to say something, this is not impinging on your freedom of speech, it is you using your freedom to make that decision. Some people call this self-censorship which I do not count as censorship. When I decide not to talk politics at the office or at home party that might be self-censorship but in reality is my own choice. Yes, censoring trolls that say vaccines are harmful is still censorship, regardless of how sure you feel about being right. Understand that any idea had to start at some point with a single person or small number of people. Women demanding their right to vote, it had to start somewhere. It also means everybody else was of another opinion. Suppressing speech, beliefs, just because you don't agree with them risks to cut those movements before they have ability to gain traction and in effect slow human progress.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  Self-censorship is censorship. If you know stating some position (I support candidate X) is going to result in being harassed, death threats or other injury and you choose to not engage in speech, that is still being censored.
  - lmilcin 5y ago
    You made decision to not get involved in the conflict. That's not censorship. Have others been allowed to state that position? Has some body tried to suppress that speech? If yes, then they (but not you) have been subject to censorship.
    - vorpalhex 5y ago
      I was trying to remember the name for this when I wrote the original comment, and now I recall it. A chilling effect. It started as a legal concept but it applies to censorship as well. It's sufficient to count as censorship if you simply punish legal speech sufficiently that the populace self-censors. [1]: https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/897/chilling-effect https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/897/chilling-effect
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - wrycoder 5y ago
      Intimidation is an effective form of censoring.
  - wvenable 5y ago
    Speech has consequences otherwise it wouldn't be worth speaking. Whether or not you want to accept those consequences is not censorship.
    - lmilcin 5y ago
      Yeah. People forget free speech does not mean consequence-free speech.
ttt0 5y ago
> If a developer (lets say, Koei Tecmo games), decides to make a video game (such as Dead or Alive 6) slightly less sexy than a previous video game (such as Dead or Alive 5), is that "censorship" ?? Is it in all releases or just the US and European releases? I remember people complaining that just the Western releases of some games were censored.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Since games are basically global these days (since the Japanese version must work with the European version and must work with the USA version for online play), its a blanket decision that applies globally.
  - ttt0 5y ago
    If it's just cosmetic changes then not really. People can mod their copies, use their own models and remain compatible with others. edit: I'm rate limited, responding here: I just pointed out that versions don't have to be the same to play online. I remember people complaining that the releases were different, so I'm just asking.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      The typical gamer can't really mod games on modern consoles like XBox Series X or PS5. Sure, a dedicated fan can do that. But when you consider the outrage is from typical people (who do not have the technical skill to implement these mods), then it makes more sense.
vorpalhex 5y ago
Except it is censorship and it's happening because a vocal minority of Western audiences demanded it. https://nichegamer.com/2018/10/27/new-sony-censorship-policy-is-forcing-even-japanese-developers-to-censor-themselves-in-japan/ https://nichegamer.com/2018/10/27/new-sony-censorship-policy...

AdmiralAsshat 5y ago

Possibly. But I think most of us would rather pick another hill to die on than deciding that removing visible cleavage on a hyper-sexualized 13 year-old is "censorship".[0] [0] https://kotaku.com/xenoblade-chronicles-xs-director-on-localization-change-1796157409 https://kotaku.com/xenoblade-chronicles-xs-director-on-local...

lmilcin 5y ago
You are not forced to comment on a HN post dedicating to censoring comments if you "would rather pick another hill to die on".
Jiro 5y ago
No Japanese creator is going to reply "well, I would rather that the company that pays my salary not censor me", unless they have such star power that they know they can say this with no repercussions, so I'm skeptical of such claims. Not to mention that Japanese creators often don't know much about a problem other than what the company tells them. If Nintendo tells them "we need to do this or people in the West won't buy it," the creator will believe them, and say that they don't mind the censorship because it's necessary, even if Nintendo is lying through their teeth when they say that.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Nintendo is a bad example actually, because a lot of the "sexy" games are moving to Nintendo Switch and away from Sony PS4/PS5.