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This sounds wildly illegal. I don't know the laws on different states, but do none of them require a reason for termination? Seems ridiculous. If they are using

This sounds wildly illegal. I don't know the laws on different states, but do none of them require a reason for termination? Seems ridiculous. If they are using facial recognition are they also making systematic racist or other illegal 'decisions' when firing? This is at least super immoral and fucking gross.

zippergz 5y ago
Most states in the US have at-will employment, which means the employee or employer can terminate employment at any time for any reason (other than some carved-out exceptions) or no reason at all.
- cryptoz 5y ago
  "At-will" employment does not sound like it would apply here. While searching for this, I found a quote "At-will does not apply if there has been a breach of good faith by the employer." This is clearly a breach of good faith. I do not think these firings are legal based on my admittedly weak understanding of the issue.
  - thrill 5y ago
    it's not even close to "clearly a breach of good faith".
    - cryptoz 5y ago
      Really? Hiring someone who starts working a night shift, and then firing them because they look different during the day time is not a breach of good faith? Firing someone for shaving their beard is not a breach of good faith? I guess I need to read up on legal terms. How are these obvious problems not breaches of good faith? I can admit I don't know much here, but, I'm shocked to find out that none of the examples in the article are considered "even close to" a breach of good faith?! What would it take for Amazon to fire someone and breach the assumed good faith? Do you have an example? I'm curious and honestly trying to learn. I googled this obviously but since I'm not a legal expert the results are iffy and can be difficult to interpret so I appreciate the conversation on this, cheers.
      - PeterisP 5y ago
        There would have to be some sort of misleading, lies, broken promises or malicious intent to cause harm. It would be a breach of good faith if you say to the employee that shaving your beard is okay when they ask but then fire them for it because akshually paragraph 113.5 of your employee handbook prohibits beards. If you did not say anything like that, then the default conditions apply, and in an at-will employment state firing someone because you don't like their face (for example, after they have shaved) is not prohibited. If you explicitly say every now and then "we may arbitrarily terminate you" and then actually do terminate people for arbitrary reasons (for example, fire everyone whose name starts with 'F' or employee ID ends with '13'), that's not a breach of good faith, as you're not breaking any promises, neither explicit or implied, you're doing exactly as you warned them you may do.
  - luhn 5y ago
    Good faith is a lower bar than you think it is. Basically you can't screw someone over by firing them. "Examples of bad faith terminations include an employer firing an older employee to avoid paying retirement benefits or terminating a salesman just before a large commission on a completed sale is payable. There have been relatively few cases in which employers were found liable under an implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing theory." Being fired by an opaque, capricious algorithm is not bad faith. It's likely more legally sound for Amazon than firing someone the "old fashioned way"—There's no potential for personal biases to get in the way, and I'm sure the software squirrels away all the necessary documentation should a wrongful termination suit arise.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Being fired by an opaque, capricious algorithm is not bad faith. It's likely more legally sound for Amazon than firing someone the "old fashioned way"—There's no potential for personal biases to get in the way, and I'm sure the software squirrels away all the necessary documentation should a wrongful termination suit arise. Given the well-known problems with computer vision and race (and the lighting-related problems this have which have similar source), I’d be very surprised if this didn't constitute disparate impact racial discrimination if someone actually did the legwork to gather the relevant data.
    - cryptoz 5y ago
      > Basically you can't screw someone over by firing them. Every person in the article seems like they were screwed over when they were fired. All of them. > Being fired by an opaque, capricious algorithm is not bad faith. Yes, it is. When the 'algorithm' is already known by executives to make horrible mistakes, it definitely is. From the article: “Executives knew this was gonna shit the bed,” > There's no potential for personal biases to get in the way, I do not agree with this at all. Someone - people - wrote the code that they use to do the firings. Just because a 'computer' took the steps does not mean that there is "no potential" for personal biases to get in the way. In fact there is unlimited potential for that, and it's sneaky, because you can just blame the software! > and I'm sure the software squirrels away all the necessary documentation should a wrongful termination suit arise. Are you really sure about this? Why are you so sure? I personally would be confident that it does not do that. If it did, wouldn't it be possible for it to not make these decisions in the first place?
- gruez 5y ago
  Does at-will employment even apply here? Aren't they contractors?
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Most states in the US have at-will employment In the sense that 50/50 is “most”, yes.
  - zippergz 5y ago
    Fair. I was hedging because I was too lazy to look it up and confirm there are no exceptions. "Every state makes their own rules" can create weird situations and I didn't want to mislead anyone....
deleted 5y ago
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zippergz 5y ago

Most states in the US have at-will employment, which means the employee or employer can terminate employment at any time for any reason (other than some carved-out exceptions) or no reason at all.

cryptoz 5y ago
"At-will" employment does not sound like it would apply here. While searching for this, I found a quote "At-will does not apply if there has been a breach of good faith by the employer." This is clearly a breach of good faith. I do not think these firings are legal based on my admittedly weak understanding of the issue.
- thrill 5y ago
  it's not even close to "clearly a breach of good faith".
  - cryptoz 5y ago
    Really? Hiring someone who starts working a night shift, and then firing them because they look different during the day time is not a breach of good faith? Firing someone for shaving their beard is not a breach of good faith? I guess I need to read up on legal terms. How are these obvious problems not breaches of good faith? I can admit I don't know much here, but, I'm shocked to find out that none of the examples in the article are considered "even close to" a breach of good faith?! What would it take for Amazon to fire someone and breach the assumed good faith? Do you have an example? I'm curious and honestly trying to learn. I googled this obviously but since I'm not a legal expert the results are iffy and can be difficult to interpret so I appreciate the conversation on this, cheers.
    - PeterisP 5y ago
      There would have to be some sort of misleading, lies, broken promises or malicious intent to cause harm. It would be a breach of good faith if you say to the employee that shaving your beard is okay when they ask but then fire them for it because akshually paragraph 113.5 of your employee handbook prohibits beards. If you did not say anything like that, then the default conditions apply, and in an at-will employment state firing someone because you don't like their face (for example, after they have shaved) is not prohibited. If you explicitly say every now and then "we may arbitrarily terminate you" and then actually do terminate people for arbitrary reasons (for example, fire everyone whose name starts with 'F' or employee ID ends with '13'), that's not a breach of good faith, as you're not breaking any promises, neither explicit or implied, you're doing exactly as you warned them you may do.
- luhn 5y ago
  Good faith is a lower bar than you think it is. Basically you can't screw someone over by firing them. "Examples of bad faith terminations include an employer firing an older employee to avoid paying retirement benefits or terminating a salesman just before a large commission on a completed sale is payable. There have been relatively few cases in which employers were found liable under an implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing theory." Being fired by an opaque, capricious algorithm is not bad faith. It's likely more legally sound for Amazon than firing someone the "old fashioned way"—There's no potential for personal biases to get in the way, and I'm sure the software squirrels away all the necessary documentation should a wrongful termination suit arise.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Being fired by an opaque, capricious algorithm is not bad faith. It's likely more legally sound for Amazon than firing someone the "old fashioned way"—There's no potential for personal biases to get in the way, and I'm sure the software squirrels away all the necessary documentation should a wrongful termination suit arise. Given the well-known problems with computer vision and race (and the lighting-related problems this have which have similar source), I’d be very surprised if this didn't constitute disparate impact racial discrimination if someone actually did the legwork to gather the relevant data.
  - cryptoz 5y ago
    > Basically you can't screw someone over by firing them. Every person in the article seems like they were screwed over when they were fired. All of them. > Being fired by an opaque, capricious algorithm is not bad faith. Yes, it is. When the 'algorithm' is already known by executives to make horrible mistakes, it definitely is. From the article: “Executives knew this was gonna shit the bed,” > There's no potential for personal biases to get in the way, I do not agree with this at all. Someone - people - wrote the code that they use to do the firings. Just because a 'computer' took the steps does not mean that there is "no potential" for personal biases to get in the way. In fact there is unlimited potential for that, and it's sneaky, because you can just blame the software! > and I'm sure the software squirrels away all the necessary documentation should a wrongful termination suit arise. Are you really sure about this? Why are you so sure? I personally would be confident that it does not do that. If it did, wouldn't it be possible for it to not make these decisions in the first place?
gruez 5y ago
Does at-will employment even apply here? Aren't they contractors?
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Most states in the US have at-will employment In the sense that 50/50 is “most”, yes.
- zippergz 5y ago
  Fair. I was hedging because I was too lazy to look it up and confirm there are no exceptions. "Every state makes their own rules" can create weird situations and I didn't want to mislead anyone....

deleted 5y ago

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