4 ms·

It's pretty clear at this point that harm reduction policies are failing worldwide and that only the lessons learned at a higher stage of moral development will

It's pretty clear at this point that harm reduction policies are failing worldwide and that only the lessons learned at a higher stage of moral development will get us out of this mess. Relationship-focused consequentialist thinking leads to this downward spiral.

pmoriarty 5y ago
"harm reduction policies are failing worldwide" Except that the biggest harm reduction policy of them all, ending the War on Drugs, hasn't yet been tried.
- slumdev 5y ago
  Users are not prosecuted in a huge number of jurisdictions already, so you must mean making the chemicals themselves legal to produce and sell. Selling Fentanyl over the counter at Walgreens isn't going to get people off the streets. It's going to put a lot more people on the streets. This idea is DOA. Just laughably out of touch with the reality of addiction.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    > Users are not prosecuted in a huge number of jurisdictions already Here [1] are some stats from just a week ago from oh-so-liberal New York City: "Police in New York City continued to arrest and issue summons to thousands of people over simple marijuana possession in the first quarter of 2021--which ended on the same day the governor signed a cannabis legalization bill into law. Data from the New York City Police Department (NYPD) released late last week showed that police made 163 arrests and handed out 3,687 summons for marijuana possession in the city's final quarter of prohibition. And as has long been the trend both locally and nationally, those enforcement actions disproportionately impacted people of color. Of the 3,687 possession-related summons issued from January through the end of March, for example, 2,374 were issued to Black people, 1,089 were for Hispanic people and just 102 were for white people. When it comes to arrests, 78 targeted Black people, 70 involved Hispanic people and just six white people were arrested for cannabis. That's despite the fact that rates of consumption are comparable across those races. Put another way, Black and Hispanic people accounted for 94 percent of the total marijuana summonses and 91 percent of cannabis arrests in New York City last quarter--a rate that is greatly disproportionate to the racial makeup of the city's population." And here [2] is Forbes reporting that "An estimated 40,000 people today are incarcerated for marijuana offenses". That's not to mention all of the other schedule one drugs, which (unlike cannabis) are not legal almost anywhere in the US, and people are still getting arrested for them. In addition lots of jobs still require passing drug tests, which I would consider persecution. It completely doesn't matter to me whether the people persecuted or prosecuted are dealers or users. If their only crime is possession they should be free, because drug laws are unjust. > so you must mean making the chemicals themselves legal to produce and sell. I do, but not without regulation. Safety regulation and good manufacturing processes overseen by the FDA like every other medicine would save infinitely more lives than the War on Drugs ever did. "Selling Fentanyl over the counter at Walgreens isn't going to get people off the streets." Neither is the War on Drugs. That's been an abominable failure. The real solution for getting people off the streets is to address the causes that they're on the streets for in the first place, which isn't drugs but the miserable environment they grew up in, their broken home lives (where many people's parents are in prison due to a racist, unjust legal system), lack of mental health care or a social safety net, and lack of opportunities and discrimination in their adult lives. People aren't on the streets because they prefer it to living in a safe suburb with a home of their own. They're there because their life sucks, and they're shooting up because their life sucks. There's a hole in these people's lives which is not going to be filled by sending them to jail and further ruining their and their family's lives. You could argue that it's not society's job to fill that hole, but it's exactly that thinking which has gotten us the cold-blooded society we're suffering through now. Finally, I'll say that I am for full cognitive liberty among adults. It is your own business and no one else's what you feel, what you think, and what your mind state is, and no means of achieving your desired state of mind should be restricted unless it harms someone else, which using neither cannabis nor Fentanyl nor any other drug does. [1] - https://filtermag.org/nypd-marijuana-arrests-black-hispanic-prohibition/ https://filtermag.org/nypd-marijuana-arrests-black-hispanic-... [2] - https://www.forbes.com/sites/joanoleck/2020/06/26/with-40000-americans-incarcerated-for-marijuana-offenses-the-cannabis-industry-needs-to-step-up-activists-said-this-week/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/joanoleck/2020/06/26/with-40000...
    - slumdev 5y ago
      Marijuana users aren't littering San Francisco with used needles and feces. You are intentionally muddying the waters.

pmoriarty 5y ago

"harm reduction policies are failing worldwide" Except that the biggest harm reduction policy of them all, ending the War on Drugs, hasn't yet been tried.

slumdev 5y ago
Users are not prosecuted in a huge number of jurisdictions already, so you must mean making the chemicals themselves legal to produce and sell. Selling Fentanyl over the counter at Walgreens isn't going to get people off the streets. It's going to put a lot more people on the streets. This idea is DOA. Just laughably out of touch with the reality of addiction.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  > Users are not prosecuted in a huge number of jurisdictions already Here [1] are some stats from just a week ago from oh-so-liberal New York City: "Police in New York City continued to arrest and issue summons to thousands of people over simple marijuana possession in the first quarter of 2021--which ended on the same day the governor signed a cannabis legalization bill into law. Data from the New York City Police Department (NYPD) released late last week showed that police made 163 arrests and handed out 3,687 summons for marijuana possession in the city's final quarter of prohibition. And as has long been the trend both locally and nationally, those enforcement actions disproportionately impacted people of color. Of the 3,687 possession-related summons issued from January through the end of March, for example, 2,374 were issued to Black people, 1,089 were for Hispanic people and just 102 were for white people. When it comes to arrests, 78 targeted Black people, 70 involved Hispanic people and just six white people were arrested for cannabis. That's despite the fact that rates of consumption are comparable across those races. Put another way, Black and Hispanic people accounted for 94 percent of the total marijuana summonses and 91 percent of cannabis arrests in New York City last quarter--a rate that is greatly disproportionate to the racial makeup of the city's population." And here [2] is Forbes reporting that "An estimated 40,000 people today are incarcerated for marijuana offenses". That's not to mention all of the other schedule one drugs, which (unlike cannabis) are not legal almost anywhere in the US, and people are still getting arrested for them. In addition lots of jobs still require passing drug tests, which I would consider persecution. It completely doesn't matter to me whether the people persecuted or prosecuted are dealers or users. If their only crime is possession they should be free, because drug laws are unjust. > so you must mean making the chemicals themselves legal to produce and sell. I do, but not without regulation. Safety regulation and good manufacturing processes overseen by the FDA like every other medicine would save infinitely more lives than the War on Drugs ever did. "Selling Fentanyl over the counter at Walgreens isn't going to get people off the streets." Neither is the War on Drugs. That's been an abominable failure. The real solution for getting people off the streets is to address the causes that they're on the streets for in the first place, which isn't drugs but the miserable environment they grew up in, their broken home lives (where many people's parents are in prison due to a racist, unjust legal system), lack of mental health care or a social safety net, and lack of opportunities and discrimination in their adult lives. People aren't on the streets because they prefer it to living in a safe suburb with a home of their own. They're there because their life sucks, and they're shooting up because their life sucks. There's a hole in these people's lives which is not going to be filled by sending them to jail and further ruining their and their family's lives. You could argue that it's not society's job to fill that hole, but it's exactly that thinking which has gotten us the cold-blooded society we're suffering through now. Finally, I'll say that I am for full cognitive liberty among adults. It is your own business and no one else's what you feel, what you think, and what your mind state is, and no means of achieving your desired state of mind should be restricted unless it harms someone else, which using neither cannabis nor Fentanyl nor any other drug does. [1] - https://filtermag.org/nypd-marijuana-arrests-black-hispanic-prohibition/ https://filtermag.org/nypd-marijuana-arrests-black-hispanic-... [2] - https://www.forbes.com/sites/joanoleck/2020/06/26/with-40000-americans-incarcerated-for-marijuana-offenses-the-cannabis-industry-needs-to-step-up-activists-said-this-week/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/joanoleck/2020/06/26/with-40000...
  - slumdev 5y ago
    Marijuana users aren't littering San Francisco with used needles and feces. You are intentionally muddying the waters.