5 ms·

Property is easy for the government to seize. Bitcoin, not so much.

mrtksn 5y ago
Governments seized a lot of BTC in the past. As soon as they have physical access to the owner, it is seizable. Bulgaria seizing 213K BTC: https://www.coininsider.com/bulgarian-government-owns-3-billion-usd-bitcoin/ https://www.coininsider.com/bulgarian-government-owns-3-bill... The US seizing 73K BTC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54833130 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54833130 are prime examples. More recently, US getting back some of the ransom paid: https://www.fastcompany.com/90644461/stolen-bitcoin-is-hard-to-get-back-but-the-fbi-says-it-just-did-it https://www.fastcompany.com/90644461/stolen-bitcoin-is-hard-... In fact, seizing property can have many complications and be very hard(ownership structures, occupant protection laws, debts and obligations etc).
- celticninja 5y ago
  But with a bank account they don't need physical access to the owner. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/25/british-citizens-born-in-us-risk-having-uk-bank-accounts-frozen https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/25/british-cit...
- celticninja 5y ago
  Re th last link, it is possible that they recovered the fee paid to the affiliate of the ransomware gang that installed the ransomware. This is possibly because the affiliate was an informant for the FBI. So it wasn't really seizing it, more like returning it.
- neb_b 5y ago
  Sure it's seizable, but it can be much harder (impossible?) to seize if the owner knows what they are doing.
- javert 5y ago
  > As soon as they have physical access to the owner, it is seizable. This is incorrect. If the owner doesn't reveal the private key, the government cannot seize the bitcoin.
krferriter 5y ago
Your body is easy to seize
arcticbull 5y ago
The world's #2 biggest holder of Bitcoin is the Bulgarian FBI. The #4 biggest holder of Bitcoin is the US FBI. Never underestimate the cryptanalytic power of whacking someone with a rubber hose until they give you their keys.
- gruez 5y ago
  > The world's #2 biggest holder of Bitcoin is the Bulgarian FBI. The #4 biggest holder of Bitcoin is the US FBI. Source? >Never underestimate the cryptanalytic power of whacking someone with a rubber hose until they give you their keys. No forms of wealth is safe against torture, and I don't think people expect bitcoin to be any different. It's still vastly more secure than a bank account (which only requires a phone call to seize) and is trivially linked to your identity (as opposed to pseudonymous bitcoin addresses)
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    Bulgaria seized 200,000 BTC in an organized crime crackdown in 2017 [1]. The FBI seized 144,000 BTC in the Silk Road crackdown in 2013, though have since auctioned some of that off. [2] I believe there are only 4 addresses with more than 100,00BTC each. Satoshi is 1. I believe Bitfinex is 3. [1] https://www.coindesk.com/bulgarian-government-sitting-3-billion-bitcoin https://www.coindesk.com/bulgarian-government-sitting-3-bill... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/10/25/fbi-says-its-seized-20-million-in-bitcoins-from-ross-ulbricht-alleged-owner-of-silk-road/?sh=8ed0f5927655 https://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/10/25/fbi-sa...
    - gruez 5y ago
      >I believe there are only 4 addresses with more than 100,00BTC each. Satoshi is 1. I believe Bitfinex is 3. The flaw in your analysis is that you assume that there's a one to one relationship between an address and a person. This is not the case because a typical bitcoin wallet has hundreds of addresses and address reuse is discouraged. Therefore your conclusion that bulgaria is the nth largest bitcoin holder in the world because there are are only n addresses with balances larger than it is incorrect.

Governments seized a lot of BTC in the past. As soon as they have physical access to the owner, it is seizable. Bulgaria seizing 213K BTC: https://www.coininsider.com/bulgarian-government-owns-3-billion-usd-bitcoin/ https://www.coininsider.com/bulgarian-government-owns-3-bill... The US seizing 73K BTC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54833130 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54833130 are prime examples. More recently, US getting back some of the ransom paid: https://www.fastcompany.com/90644461/stolen-bitcoin-is-hard-to-get-back-but-the-fbi-says-it-just-did-it https://www.fastcompany.com/90644461/stolen-bitcoin-is-hard-... In fact, seizing property can have many complications and be very hard(ownership structures, occupant protection laws, debts and obligations etc).

celticninja 5y ago
But with a bank account they don't need physical access to the owner. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/25/british-citizens-born-in-us-risk-having-uk-bank-accounts-frozen https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/25/british-cit...
celticninja 5y ago
Re th last link, it is possible that they recovered the fee paid to the affiliate of the ransomware gang that installed the ransomware. This is possibly because the affiliate was an informant for the FBI. So it wasn't really seizing it, more like returning it.
neb_b 5y ago
Sure it's seizable, but it can be much harder (impossible?) to seize if the owner knows what they are doing.
javert 5y ago
> As soon as they have physical access to the owner, it is seizable. This is incorrect. If the owner doesn't reveal the private key, the government cannot seize the bitcoin.

krferriter 5y ago

Your body is easy to seize

arcticbull 5y ago

The world's #2 biggest holder of Bitcoin is the Bulgarian FBI. The #4 biggest holder of Bitcoin is the US FBI. Never underestimate the cryptanalytic power of whacking someone with a rubber hose until they give you their keys.

gruez 5y ago
> The world's #2 biggest holder of Bitcoin is the Bulgarian FBI. The #4 biggest holder of Bitcoin is the US FBI. Source? >Never underestimate the cryptanalytic power of whacking someone with a rubber hose until they give you their keys. No forms of wealth is safe against torture, and I don't think people expect bitcoin to be any different. It's still vastly more secure than a bank account (which only requires a phone call to seize) and is trivially linked to your identity (as opposed to pseudonymous bitcoin addresses)
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Bulgaria seized 200,000 BTC in an organized crime crackdown in 2017 [1]. The FBI seized 144,000 BTC in the Silk Road crackdown in 2013, though have since auctioned some of that off. [2] I believe there are only 4 addresses with more than 100,00BTC each. Satoshi is 1. I believe Bitfinex is 3. [1] https://www.coindesk.com/bulgarian-government-sitting-3-billion-bitcoin https://www.coindesk.com/bulgarian-government-sitting-3-bill... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/10/25/fbi-says-its-seized-20-million-in-bitcoins-from-ross-ulbricht-alleged-owner-of-silk-road/?sh=8ed0f5927655 https://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/10/25/fbi-sa...
  - gruez 5y ago
    >I believe there are only 4 addresses with more than 100,00BTC each. Satoshi is 1. I believe Bitfinex is 3. The flaw in your analysis is that you assume that there's a one to one relationship between an address and a person. This is not the case because a typical bitcoin wallet has hundreds of addresses and address reuse is discouraged. Therefore your conclusion that bulgaria is the nth largest bitcoin holder in the world because there are are only n addresses with balances larger than it is incorrect.