10 ms·

This is really a dealbreaker for me, much more than the TPM and recent processor stuff. There must be some workaround :( Edit: Thanks @yourusername, I had miss

This is really a dealbreaker for me, much more than the TPM and recent processor stuff. There must be some workaround :( Edit: Thanks @yourusername, I had missed the part where it's only for the home edition. I'm glad there is still a way.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
The workaround is to use Linux :)
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  I only use my Windows PC for gaming now, where it's kinda unavoidable.
  - Freak_NL 5y ago
    Keep an eye out for games supported on Proton (Steam's Wine facilitation) on protondb.com. In a mere five years gaming on Linux went from a solid selection of native games, to those, plus an impressive amount of high profile titles that just work out of the box (often with better performance on Linux). Of course there may be one or two titles that tie you to Windows, or perhaps multiplayer specific gaming related software, but if you are flexible in that regard gaming on Linux is just… good.
    - maltalex 5y ago
      "just work out of the box" is an overstatement. I ran Manjaro for about half a year recently, including using it for gaming. Very few games actually worked out of the box for me, including games with so called "native" Linux support. I ran into multiple games with "official" Linux support that were simply broken or became broken by an update. Some of those that weren't broken had significant performance issues (that Windows on the same machine didn't have). Is it possible to game on Linux? Yes. But at the very least it requires fiddling. As much as I love Linux, gaming is just a lot easier on Windows.
      - leppr 5y ago
        Many Linux games are only tested on Ubuntu. I personally haven't had more issues running Linux native games on Ubuntu than Windows native games on Windows. Playing games on Windows often requires fiddling as well. Either having to lock the mouse to one monitor, fiddling with V-sync and FPS limits (often only possible through graphics card drivers, launch arguments or text config files), disabling Windows malware scanning, fiddling with Windows compatibility settings for older games, ... Admittedly I now dual-boot to Windows to play videogames, but that's not because of faults in native Linux games, just the reduced selection.
        maltalex 5y ago
        It's possible that some of the issues I ran into were due to Manjaro not being Ubuntu, but they could also have been due to drivers or some random setting somewhere in the system. Plenty of people on protondb reported zero issues with the same games on their Manjaro/Arch boxes. > Playing games on Windows often requires fiddling as well. Either having to lock the mouse to one monitor, fiddling with V-sync and FPS limits (often only possible through graphics card drivers, launch arguments or text config files), disabling Windows malware scanning, fiddling with Windows compatibility settings for older games Maybe it's the type of games I play, but this is extremely rare in my experience. I don't remember the last time I had to fiddle with anything outside the game's own settings despite having a multi-monitor setup.
    - checkyoursudo 5y ago
      My biggest pain point is that some of the mainstream multiplayer anticheat implementations don't work on wine. I'd like to be able to play Tarkov or Hunt or Apex on Linux, but I can't. So far, I have just not played those titles, even though I really want to. I don't really want to have to dual boot just to play them, because Windows 10 messes up my EFI booting. I used to run Windows with a GPU passthrough, but I stopped doing that once proton came along. Maybe I'll look at doing that again, though it was hell to set up on Gentoo at the time. Maybe other distros have smoothed that out a bit? It's been like 6 years since I did it the last time. I know the wine guys have been doing great work trying to get anticheats working in wine/proton. Hopefully that progresses well. Getting anticheat to work in wine would really be the best.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - binarybanana 5y ago
        It's gotten much easier with Nvidia cards thanks to VM gaming being officially supported. No more hiding the VM and that Error 47 nonsense. Basically you bind the graphics card to the vfio driver by writing the PCI ID to /sys/bus/pci/drivers/vfio-pci/new_id and then you can use it in qemu with -device vfio-pci,host=01:00.0. If you have sane IOMMU groups and have an extra GPU for the host it should work with just those two steps. You still have to decide about how you handle input and output, but that's very user specific. Virtual input over the qemu GUI works well enough, there's also an evdev thing that lets you switch by pressing both Ctrl keys, or pass an entire USB controller. For audio I recommend scream[1] for the lowest latency (I get 2ms VM->PA->Speaker with MuQSS scheduler) with full 7.1 audio and if you don't want a dedicated monitor or switch monitor inputs there is Looking Glass[2] which captures frames and shuffles them to the host over shared memory. It also handles input via spice. It's still a bit of work, but for me that's mostly on the Windows side rather than the passthrough stuff itself. [1]: https://github.com/duncanthrax/scream https://github.com/duncanthrax/scream [2]: https://github.com/gnif/LookingGlass https://github.com/gnif/LookingGlass
        checkyoursudo 5y ago
  - axelroze 5y ago
    Steam Proton and Soldier runtime do wonders. I am playing Witcher 3 through it. Using mods. No lags or crashes.
    - badsectoracula 5y ago
      The annoying bit with those is that they are Steam only. I try to avoid Steam and instead buy from GOG because they are DRM-free and i keep offline copies of all of my games, but Wine still (just tried yesterday the version Void Linux installs in a VM) seems to have issues even with slightly older games. There used to be a way to run Proton outside of Steam but i think it is now discouraged.
      - steerablesafe 5y ago
        I have good experience with recent wine and dxvk too. I don't have steam.
      - okamiueru 5y ago
        It's not impossible to run gog games through the proton compatibility layer of steam. In short: 1. Download gog install files into the same directory 2. Add the install executable as a non-steam game, and enable proton compatibility before starting it up. 3. Run the installer and complete the installation. Gog installers typically give the option to run the game from the installer, but that will only work once. 4. Find the path of the installed game, and the working directory of that executable by searching in ~/.steam 5. Edit the entry created from 2. with this exec path and working dir, and look up possible args from protondb.com
        badsectoracula 5y ago
        This requires Steam to be there, as i wrote i try to avoid using Steam.
      - marlowe221 5y ago
        In that case, please give Lutris a solid look. It's a great app that eases the pain of installing games via WINE (and makes it easy to install particular versions of WINE on a per game basis). It's how I run my GOG games on Pop OS.
- tssva 5y ago
  Great. The workaround is much worse battery usage, screen tearing and a horrible trackpad experience.
  - andrewnicolalde 5y ago
    Regarding screen tearing and trackpad issues, these are largely gone. Wayland has more or less solved the screen tearing issue and I have yet to encounter a poor trackpad experience using a modern machine, in my case an XPS 15 9570.
    - chme 5y ago
      Wayland is great, however it also makes screen recording more difficult.
      - andrewnicolalde 5y ago
        True. For "wl-roots"-based compositors like swaywm, check out wf-recorder[1]. [1]https://github.com/ammen99/wf-recorder https://github.com/ammen99/wf-recorder
        chme 5y ago
        I know about those solutions, and it works for me on sway in general. But is was not a simple out-of-the-box experience you have with X11. And there are still multiple issues: For instance with X11 you can select a specific window. I have not found a way to do this in with a wayland compositor yet.
    - abyssin 5y ago
      Screen tearing isn’t gone, unfortunately. Watching videos on my Linux machine is a pain. I use a Lenovo T460s and I’ve spent too much time looking for a solution (more then an hour). I like the freedom of a Linux OS (i3m is cool) but it looks so bad compared to MacOS.
    - tssva 5y ago
yourusername 5y ago
Win11 pro will not be subject to this requirement.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Aha I'm glad, thank you for pointing this out! I see now that the article specifically mentions Windows 11 Home only, I should have noticed that.
- fh973 5y ago
  References? Is there some sort of official statement? Windows 10 was also not subject to this requirement, yet you're harassed when you try to keep your local login.
- cutler 5y ago
  Does it matter? MS are back to their old tricks one way or another. Makes me wonder if I should ditch C# and ASP.Net.
  - abraxas 5y ago
    Yes you should. They are now pushing the 'your experience is better with a Microsoft account' shit in Visual Studio.
    - cutler 5y ago
      I use VS Mac exclusively. Wondering how long it will be before they try to leverage VS Code. There must now be plenty of young devs who have never used anything else.
romanovcode 5y ago
It was never a requirement. It uses dark UI patterns (You have to click cancel, then there is a tiny link at the bottom that allows you to create local pc admin account with no MS attachment). Media likes to overblow things.
- nulbyte 5y ago
  I'm not sure this is true anymore. I bought a new laptop, and I could not figure out how to avoid signing in to a Microsoft account without starting over and refusing to set up Wi-Fi. I am quite savvy, but admittedly I had not used a consumer edition of Windows in quite some time. Nothing overblown here; dark patterns ought to be called out loudly.
  - romanovcode 5y ago
    I just recently did re-format my gaming PC with latest Win10 and it was possible. Maybe because I have "Pro" version, but it was possible on latest Win10.
    - stan_rogers 5y ago
      Yes, Pro is different. Windows 10 Home will require an account at setup if there's any way it can get to the internet. (No wifi and nothing plugged into the ethernet port will give you the option.)
  - martyvis 5y ago
    Yep. I literally had to solve this yesterday helping a friend setup a brand new laptop (with Window Home edition) That little link is gone now. I had to Google to find that you create the local account by turning on Airplane mode before entering that screen. It then let me create a local account. ( And of course the other thing I did was immediately remove the McAfee security nagware - at least Microsoft has Defender already installed ready to take over AV duties )
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  I'm aware yes. It was also possible by not connecting to WiFi or Ethernet while setting up Windows 10. But I thought that this meant that that option would go away with Windows 11. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, all I have is the news to go by!
BatteryMountain 5y ago
Fedora, Ubuntu, Mint, PopOS, Manjaro/Arch. Spend the time to get acquainted, soon you will see you can do almost everything you need on linux (and more) that you can on Windows/macOS, but with less mental overhead (after you are used to linux, it really is simpler).
- SamuelAdams 5y ago
  I feel like comments like this gloss over the many UX issues many Linux distros have. For example the file picker. When you open a new file from the web browser (Firefox usually) you navigate to your file and pick it. Now if you open up another file, it forgot your last opened directory and takes you back to your home or default. On windows and Mac I believe it remembers your last directory. Also saving files in Debian is a bit of a pain. I think it keeps searching instead of actually typing the file name when you save a new word doc from libre office or another application. Plus other services, like Netflix and Hulu, may not work out of the box. You’ll have to find a workaround but I think their official stance is still “Linux is not a supported platform”. Don’t get me wrong Linux is great and it’s in a wonderful spot compared to 10 years ago. But it still does not have the polish or UX that users from windows and Mac expect in an operating system.
  - LAC-Tech 5y ago
    Right but your comment glosses over the many UX issues windows has. For example, virtual desktops are associated with all your screens, not with individual screens. Never had this issue in any linux distro. (I'm all ears on how to solve that file picker problem though, that is mildly annoying).
    - forgotpwd16 5y ago
      >I'm all ears on how to solve that file picker problem though Use the for long time available patch for GTK file chooser, use an XDG portal to open KDE file chooser instead of the GTK one, or use a Qt-based (KDE or Deepin) rather a GTK-based environment. And for any interested programmers, a maintainer recently has outlined some steps[0] to introduce that functionality in a way that probably GNOME devs will accept. [0]: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/233#note_1106706 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/233#note_1106706

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

The workaround is to use Linux :)

GekkePrutser 5y ago
I only use my Windows PC for gaming now, where it's kinda unavoidable.
- Freak_NL 5y ago
  Keep an eye out for games supported on Proton (Steam's Wine facilitation) on protondb.com. In a mere five years gaming on Linux went from a solid selection of native games, to those, plus an impressive amount of high profile titles that just work out of the box (often with better performance on Linux). Of course there may be one or two titles that tie you to Windows, or perhaps multiplayer specific gaming related software, but if you are flexible in that regard gaming on Linux is just… good.
  - maltalex 5y ago
    "just work out of the box" is an overstatement. I ran Manjaro for about half a year recently, including using it for gaming. Very few games actually worked out of the box for me, including games with so called "native" Linux support. I ran into multiple games with "official" Linux support that were simply broken or became broken by an update. Some of those that weren't broken had significant performance issues (that Windows on the same machine didn't have). Is it possible to game on Linux? Yes. But at the very least it requires fiddling. As much as I love Linux, gaming is just a lot easier on Windows.
    - leppr 5y ago
      Many Linux games are only tested on Ubuntu. I personally haven't had more issues running Linux native games on Ubuntu than Windows native games on Windows. Playing games on Windows often requires fiddling as well. Either having to lock the mouse to one monitor, fiddling with V-sync and FPS limits (often only possible through graphics card drivers, launch arguments or text config files), disabling Windows malware scanning, fiddling with Windows compatibility settings for older games, ... Admittedly I now dual-boot to Windows to play videogames, but that's not because of faults in native Linux games, just the reduced selection.
      - maltalex 5y ago
        It's possible that some of the issues I ran into were due to Manjaro not being Ubuntu, but they could also have been due to drivers or some random setting somewhere in the system. Plenty of people on protondb reported zero issues with the same games on their Manjaro/Arch boxes. > Playing games on Windows often requires fiddling as well. Either having to lock the mouse to one monitor, fiddling with V-sync and FPS limits (often only possible through graphics card drivers, launch arguments or text config files), disabling Windows malware scanning, fiddling with Windows compatibility settings for older games Maybe it's the type of games I play, but this is extremely rare in my experience. I don't remember the last time I had to fiddle with anything outside the game's own settings despite having a multi-monitor setup.
  - checkyoursudo 5y ago
    My biggest pain point is that some of the mainstream multiplayer anticheat implementations don't work on wine. I'd like to be able to play Tarkov or Hunt or Apex on Linux, but I can't. So far, I have just not played those titles, even though I really want to. I don't really want to have to dual boot just to play them, because Windows 10 messes up my EFI booting. I used to run Windows with a GPU passthrough, but I stopped doing that once proton came along. Maybe I'll look at doing that again, though it was hell to set up on Gentoo at the time. Maybe other distros have smoothed that out a bit? It's been like 6 years since I did it the last time. I know the wine guys have been doing great work trying to get anticheats working in wine/proton. Hopefully that progresses well. Getting anticheat to work in wine would really be the best.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - binarybanana 5y ago
      It's gotten much easier with Nvidia cards thanks to VM gaming being officially supported. No more hiding the VM and that Error 47 nonsense. Basically you bind the graphics card to the vfio driver by writing the PCI ID to /sys/bus/pci/drivers/vfio-pci/new_id and then you can use it in qemu with -device vfio-pci,host=01:00.0. If you have sane IOMMU groups and have an extra GPU for the host it should work with just those two steps. You still have to decide about how you handle input and output, but that's very user specific. Virtual input over the qemu GUI works well enough, there's also an evdev thing that lets you switch by pressing both Ctrl keys, or pass an entire USB controller. For audio I recommend scream[1] for the lowest latency (I get 2ms VM->PA->Speaker with MuQSS scheduler) with full 7.1 audio and if you don't want a dedicated monitor or switch monitor inputs there is Looking Glass[2] which captures frames and shuffles them to the host over shared memory. It also handles input via spice. It's still a bit of work, but for me that's mostly on the Windows side rather than the passthrough stuff itself. [1]: https://github.com/duncanthrax/scream https://github.com/duncanthrax/scream [2]: https://github.com/gnif/LookingGlass https://github.com/gnif/LookingGlass
      - checkyoursudo 5y ago
- axelroze 5y ago
  Steam Proton and Soldier runtime do wonders. I am playing Witcher 3 through it. Using mods. No lags or crashes.
  - badsectoracula 5y ago
    The annoying bit with those is that they are Steam only. I try to avoid Steam and instead buy from GOG because they are DRM-free and i keep offline copies of all of my games, but Wine still (just tried yesterday the version Void Linux installs in a VM) seems to have issues even with slightly older games. There used to be a way to run Proton outside of Steam but i think it is now discouraged.
    - steerablesafe 5y ago
      I have good experience with recent wine and dxvk too. I don't have steam.
    - okamiueru 5y ago
      It's not impossible to run gog games through the proton compatibility layer of steam. In short: 1. Download gog install files into the same directory 2. Add the install executable as a non-steam game, and enable proton compatibility before starting it up. 3. Run the installer and complete the installation. Gog installers typically give the option to run the game from the installer, but that will only work once. 4. Find the path of the installed game, and the working directory of that executable by searching in ~/.steam 5. Edit the entry created from 2. with this exec path and working dir, and look up possible args from protondb.com
      - badsectoracula 5y ago
        This requires Steam to be there, as i wrote i try to avoid using Steam.
    - marlowe221 5y ago
      In that case, please give Lutris a solid look. It's a great app that eases the pain of installing games via WINE (and makes it easy to install particular versions of WINE on a per game basis). It's how I run my GOG games on Pop OS.
tssva 5y ago
Great. The workaround is much worse battery usage, screen tearing and a horrible trackpad experience.
- andrewnicolalde 5y ago
  Regarding screen tearing and trackpad issues, these are largely gone. Wayland has more or less solved the screen tearing issue and I have yet to encounter a poor trackpad experience using a modern machine, in my case an XPS 15 9570.
  - chme 5y ago
    Wayland is great, however it also makes screen recording more difficult.
    - andrewnicolalde 5y ago
      True. For "wl-roots"-based compositors like swaywm, check out wf-recorder[1]. [1]https://github.com/ammen99/wf-recorder https://github.com/ammen99/wf-recorder
      - chme 5y ago
        I know about those solutions, and it works for me on sway in general. But is was not a simple out-of-the-box experience you have with X11. And there are still multiple issues: For instance with X11 you can select a specific window. I have not found a way to do this in with a wayland compositor yet.
  - abyssin 5y ago
    Screen tearing isn’t gone, unfortunately. Watching videos on my Linux machine is a pain. I use a Lenovo T460s and I’ve spent too much time looking for a solution (more then an hour). I like the freedom of a Linux OS (i3m is cool) but it looks so bad compared to MacOS.
  - tssva 5y ago

yourusername 5y ago

Win11 pro will not be subject to this requirement.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
Aha I'm glad, thank you for pointing this out! I see now that the article specifically mentions Windows 11 Home only, I should have noticed that.
fh973 5y ago
References? Is there some sort of official statement? Windows 10 was also not subject to this requirement, yet you're harassed when you try to keep your local login.
cutler 5y ago
Does it matter? MS are back to their old tricks one way or another. Makes me wonder if I should ditch C# and ASP.Net.
- abraxas 5y ago
  Yes you should. They are now pushing the 'your experience is better with a Microsoft account' shit in Visual Studio.
  - cutler 5y ago
    I use VS Mac exclusively. Wondering how long it will be before they try to leverage VS Code. There must now be plenty of young devs who have never used anything else.

romanovcode 5y ago

It was never a requirement. It uses dark UI patterns (You have to click cancel, then there is a tiny link at the bottom that allows you to create local pc admin account with no MS attachment). Media likes to overblow things.

nulbyte 5y ago
I'm not sure this is true anymore. I bought a new laptop, and I could not figure out how to avoid signing in to a Microsoft account without starting over and refusing to set up Wi-Fi. I am quite savvy, but admittedly I had not used a consumer edition of Windows in quite some time. Nothing overblown here; dark patterns ought to be called out loudly.
- romanovcode 5y ago
  I just recently did re-format my gaming PC with latest Win10 and it was possible. Maybe because I have "Pro" version, but it was possible on latest Win10.
  - stan_rogers 5y ago
    Yes, Pro is different. Windows 10 Home will require an account at setup if there's any way it can get to the internet. (No wifi and nothing plugged into the ethernet port will give you the option.)
- martyvis 5y ago
  Yep. I literally had to solve this yesterday helping a friend setup a brand new laptop (with Window Home edition) That little link is gone now. I had to Google to find that you create the local account by turning on Airplane mode before entering that screen. It then let me create a local account. ( And of course the other thing I did was immediately remove the McAfee security nagware - at least Microsoft has Defender already installed ready to take over AV duties )
GekkePrutser 5y ago
I'm aware yes. It was also possible by not connecting to WiFi or Ethernet while setting up Windows 10. But I thought that this meant that that option would go away with Windows 11. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, all I have is the news to go by!

BatteryMountain 5y ago

Fedora, Ubuntu, Mint, PopOS, Manjaro/Arch. Spend the time to get acquainted, soon you will see you can do almost everything you need on linux (and more) that you can on Windows/macOS, but with less mental overhead (after you are used to linux, it really is simpler).

SamuelAdams 5y ago
I feel like comments like this gloss over the many UX issues many Linux distros have. For example the file picker. When you open a new file from the web browser (Firefox usually) you navigate to your file and pick it. Now if you open up another file, it forgot your last opened directory and takes you back to your home or default. On windows and Mac I believe it remembers your last directory. Also saving files in Debian is a bit of a pain. I think it keeps searching instead of actually typing the file name when you save a new word doc from libre office or another application. Plus other services, like Netflix and Hulu, may not work out of the box. You’ll have to find a workaround but I think their official stance is still “Linux is not a supported platform”. Don’t get me wrong Linux is great and it’s in a wonderful spot compared to 10 years ago. But it still does not have the polish or UX that users from windows and Mac expect in an operating system.
- LAC-Tech 5y ago
  Right but your comment glosses over the many UX issues windows has. For example, virtual desktops are associated with all your screens, not with individual screens. Never had this issue in any linux distro. (I'm all ears on how to solve that file picker problem though, that is mildly annoying).
  - forgotpwd16 5y ago
    >I'm all ears on how to solve that file picker problem though Use the for long time available patch for GTK file chooser, use an XDG portal to open KDE file chooser instead of the GTK one, or use a Qt-based (KDE or Deepin) rather a GTK-based environment. And for any interested programmers, a maintainer recently has outlined some steps[0] to introduce that functionality in a way that probably GNOME devs will accept. [0]: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/233#note_1106706 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/233#note_1106706