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Hah, love the delusion. Any mention of interest rate hikes and Bitcoin takes a dive too, because as far as I understand it, there's many borrowing cheap money

Hah, love the delusion. Any mention of interest rate hikes and Bitcoin takes a dive too, because as far as I understand it, there's many borrowing cheap money (i.e. with low interest rate) to "invest" hoping to profit off the ponzi scheme.

celticninja 5y ago
Do you have any sources for that?
zarzavat 5y ago
Exactly how long does something have to hold its value for it to not be a "ponzi scheme?" Because I've been reading snide remarks about Ponzi schemes and tulip bubbles on HN since bitcoin was in the single figures.
- Kbelicius 5y ago
  Madoff started his business in the early 60s and it operated until 2008. How long do you think something should hold its value til we can, with certainty, say that it is not a Ponzi scheme?
  - zarzavat 5y ago
    We can say with certainty that Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme because a Ponzi scheme requires fraud i.e wilful deception. Bitcoin is not perpetuating any deception, anybody can on the basis of freely available information learn about its risks and decide whether they want to buy it or not.
    - Kbelicius 5y ago
      > We can say with certainty that Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme because a Ponzi scheme requires fraud i.e wilful deception. I agree with you but we can also say with certainty that economics of Bitcoin are identical to a Ponzi scheme. Earlier investors are payed with funds from more recent investors.
      - helloworld11 5y ago
        No they're not. Earlier investors can benefit from the growth in price of their bitcoin holdings due to increased buying and price rises from new investors, who themselves hold exactly the bitcoin they bought with the risks fully known to anyone willing to do a minor bit of research. At any time, all owners of bitcoin actually have their own bitcoin and theoretically could sell their coins because they actually have them. (unless we're talking about cases like specific companies or exchanges in which clients are being fooled into thinking they own bitcoins that they don't actually own. However, even in this case, the fraud is with certain BTC ecosystem players, not BTC itself as a thing.) A ponzi scheme on the other hand literally transfers funds from new members to previous members in order to maintain an illusion of high returns, until the house of cards collapses as new members stop paying in at a rate that can sustain the illusion of returns through dishonest fund transfers. These are all very basic and easy to grasp distinctions. It's tiresome to see the parroting of "BTC is a ponzi scheme" by so many supposedly non-stupid people on HN. Opposition to a thing shouldn't justify obviously, idiotically sloppy reasoning.
        Kbelicius 5y ago
        > Earlier investors can benefit from the growth in price of their bitcoin holdings due to increased buying and price rises from new investors, who themselves hold exactly the bitcoin they bought with the risks fully known to anyone willing to do a minor bit of research. So what you are saying is that earlier investors investments only grow with influx of new investors. How is that different than a Ponzi scheme? > At any time, all owners of bitcoin actually have their own bitcoin and theoretically could sell their coins because they actually have them. Here you are describing a Ponzi scheme. Literally. You are just repeating what I wrote in the previous post: "Earlier investors are payed[paid] with funds from more recent investors.". > A ponzi scheme on the other hand literally transfers funds from new members to previous members in order to maintain an illusion of high returns, until the house of cards collapses as new members stop paying in at a rate that can sustain the illusion of returns through dishonest fund transfers. That is how bitcoin works. Are you trolling me? If I buy a bitcoin and later sell it that is literally a transfer of funds from a new member to me, a previous member. > These are all very basic and easy to grasp distinctions. You listed no distinctions.
janoside 5y ago
https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-ponzi-scheme/ https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-ponzi-scheme/

celticninja 5y ago

Do you have any sources for that?

zarzavat 5y ago

Exactly how long does something have to hold its value for it to not be a "ponzi scheme?" Because I've been reading snide remarks about Ponzi schemes and tulip bubbles on HN since bitcoin was in the single figures.

Kbelicius 5y ago
Madoff started his business in the early 60s and it operated until 2008. How long do you think something should hold its value til we can, with certainty, say that it is not a Ponzi scheme?
- zarzavat 5y ago
  We can say with certainty that Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme because a Ponzi scheme requires fraud i.e wilful deception. Bitcoin is not perpetuating any deception, anybody can on the basis of freely available information learn about its risks and decide whether they want to buy it or not.
  - Kbelicius 5y ago
    > We can say with certainty that Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme because a Ponzi scheme requires fraud i.e wilful deception. I agree with you but we can also say with certainty that economics of Bitcoin are identical to a Ponzi scheme. Earlier investors are payed with funds from more recent investors.
    - helloworld11 5y ago
      No they're not. Earlier investors can benefit from the growth in price of their bitcoin holdings due to increased buying and price rises from new investors, who themselves hold exactly the bitcoin they bought with the risks fully known to anyone willing to do a minor bit of research. At any time, all owners of bitcoin actually have their own bitcoin and theoretically could sell their coins because they actually have them. (unless we're talking about cases like specific companies or exchanges in which clients are being fooled into thinking they own bitcoins that they don't actually own. However, even in this case, the fraud is with certain BTC ecosystem players, not BTC itself as a thing.) A ponzi scheme on the other hand literally transfers funds from new members to previous members in order to maintain an illusion of high returns, until the house of cards collapses as new members stop paying in at a rate that can sustain the illusion of returns through dishonest fund transfers. These are all very basic and easy to grasp distinctions. It's tiresome to see the parroting of "BTC is a ponzi scheme" by so many supposedly non-stupid people on HN. Opposition to a thing shouldn't justify obviously, idiotically sloppy reasoning.
      - Kbelicius 5y ago
        > Earlier investors can benefit from the growth in price of their bitcoin holdings due to increased buying and price rises from new investors, who themselves hold exactly the bitcoin they bought with the risks fully known to anyone willing to do a minor bit of research. So what you are saying is that earlier investors investments only grow with influx of new investors. How is that different than a Ponzi scheme? > At any time, all owners of bitcoin actually have their own bitcoin and theoretically could sell their coins because they actually have them. Here you are describing a Ponzi scheme. Literally. You are just repeating what I wrote in the previous post: "Earlier investors are payed[paid] with funds from more recent investors.". > A ponzi scheme on the other hand literally transfers funds from new members to previous members in order to maintain an illusion of high returns, until the house of cards collapses as new members stop paying in at a rate that can sustain the illusion of returns through dishonest fund transfers. That is how bitcoin works. Are you trolling me? If I buy a bitcoin and later sell it that is literally a transfer of funds from a new member to me, a previous member. > These are all very basic and easy to grasp distinctions. You listed no distinctions.

janoside 5y ago

https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-ponzi-scheme/ https://www.lynalden.com/bitcoin-ponzi-scheme/