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I also strongly believe that people are more than willing to work below minimum wage - it's just that I have a less happy explanation: Otherwise, their food, th

I also strongly believe that people are more than willing to work below minimum wage - it's just that I have a less happy explanation: Otherwise, their food, their car, and their house gets taken away. If becoming homeless was the alternative, I'd also do whatever job I have to. So in my opinion, this mostly just shows us that productivity in general is so high and automation works so well that we honestly don't need a healthy chunk of our fellow citizens. That's why they are forced to compete for even the shittiest jobs. Now the question is, what do we do with them?

Cipater 5y ago
that we honestly don't need a healthy chunk of our fellow citizens. So dehumanising the way you talk about these people. We definitely need YOU, right? Maybe I should just log off HN for today.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  They never said that, you are putting words in their post. They could have the opinion that they are one of those people.
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  It is cruel, I agree, but it might be the reality. We have collectively decided to value people based on their economic output. It's called capitalism and it seems to work OK or better for the majority of people. But sticking to it does dehumanize or at the very least devalue a certain part of our people. That said, it was not my intention to judge people based on their work merit. I am merely pointing out that our society would continue to function even if let's say 20% of all people were permanently unemployed. So please don't shoot the messenger. And no, most of society doesn't care whether I do what I do or not. If my finances allow it, I might even opt to voluntarily become part of the "not needed = permanently unemployed" group and spend more time with my family instead of working.
- pizzazzaro 5y ago
  I dont know about you, but I would love the opportunity to just have my bills paid, while I pursue some passion project. Write some code for broad utility and GPL it. Maybe paint. Maybe teach some neighbors' kids how to code. Maybe help the neighbors with a few things, so they can have time with their kids. Finally build that 3D printer filament recycler for those plastic cups. And print toys for the neighborhood kids by how much they can collect. Share. Build. Dream. Learn. Live. Its not that these things arent contributing to our society. Its that these things are not itemized by a monetary value as part of the GDP. And I think that says something about the way we run our economy, more than it says about "laziness," or whatever hustle-culture sales-pitch theyre calling it now. People are passionate. If someone lacks it? Someone or something trained them to be otherwise - usually mistakenly calling this a part of "discipline."
radu_floricica 5y ago
Well, not force them to live on welfare would be a good start :) Which is what minimum wage is doing. Comparative advantage is a thing. Lower work cost enough, and ideally lower other living wage floors like NIMBYsm, and things should settle to a decent enough level. Which we can supplement with a very low level UBI when we can afford it. But the current system is not just discouraging - it's forbidding unproductive people from working.
- solarmist 5y ago
  How getting rid of minimum wage (from your original post) would reduce reliance on welfare? Also NIMBYism manifests as a wage floor, but keeping the wrong sort of people out is the cause and money’s not gonna solve that. Finally, from everything I’ve read UBI is already affordable. Especially when you replace welfare and the all of the bookkeeping/gate keeping costs associated with ensure not a single dollar is ever “abused”.
  - radu_floricica 5y ago
    Try sketching the math on a napkin. I assume you're in US - multiply the population with a monthly figure, then 12 months, and compare it with the current yearly budget.gonna be interesting, I promise.
washadjeffmad 5y ago
If I'm understanding, you're saying people will work for less than their value because there's either a capital or job supply isssue in their market, not because the cost or risk to an average person to just doing the work or starting their own business is so high that minimum wage is a more appealing proposition? It sounds more like labor is being artificially broken to deter people from asking for the value of their labor over accepting wage work. If Uber were a service to organize and empower workers by allowing them to set their own prices, how many do you think would continue working for less than minimum wage?
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  No I'm arguing that "value" here is strongly determined by supply and demand. And if you have an oversupply of people willing to work - because they literally have to work to survive - it drives down prices to unsustainable levels.

Cipater 5y ago

that we honestly don't need a healthy chunk of our fellow citizens. So dehumanising the way you talk about these people. We definitely need YOU, right? Maybe I should just log off HN for today.

netizen-936824 5y ago
They never said that, you are putting words in their post. They could have the opinion that they are one of those people.
fxtentacle 5y ago
It is cruel, I agree, but it might be the reality. We have collectively decided to value people based on their economic output. It's called capitalism and it seems to work OK or better for the majority of people. But sticking to it does dehumanize or at the very least devalue a certain part of our people. That said, it was not my intention to judge people based on their work merit. I am merely pointing out that our society would continue to function even if let's say 20% of all people were permanently unemployed. So please don't shoot the messenger. And no, most of society doesn't care whether I do what I do or not. If my finances allow it, I might even opt to voluntarily become part of the "not needed = permanently unemployed" group and spend more time with my family instead of working.
pizzazzaro 5y ago
I dont know about you, but I would love the opportunity to just have my bills paid, while I pursue some passion project. Write some code for broad utility and GPL it. Maybe paint. Maybe teach some neighbors' kids how to code. Maybe help the neighbors with a few things, so they can have time with their kids. Finally build that 3D printer filament recycler for those plastic cups. And print toys for the neighborhood kids by how much they can collect. Share. Build. Dream. Learn. Live. Its not that these things arent contributing to our society. Its that these things are not itemized by a monetary value as part of the GDP. And I think that says something about the way we run our economy, more than it says about "laziness," or whatever hustle-culture sales-pitch theyre calling it now. People are passionate. If someone lacks it? Someone or something trained them to be otherwise - usually mistakenly calling this a part of "discipline."

radu_floricica 5y ago

Well, not force them to live on welfare would be a good start :) Which is what minimum wage is doing. Comparative advantage is a thing. Lower work cost enough, and ideally lower other living wage floors like NIMBYsm, and things should settle to a decent enough level. Which we can supplement with a very low level UBI when we can afford it. But the current system is not just discouraging - it's forbidding unproductive people from working.

solarmist 5y ago
How getting rid of minimum wage (from your original post) would reduce reliance on welfare? Also NIMBYism manifests as a wage floor, but keeping the wrong sort of people out is the cause and money’s not gonna solve that. Finally, from everything I’ve read UBI is already affordable. Especially when you replace welfare and the all of the bookkeeping/gate keeping costs associated with ensure not a single dollar is ever “abused”.
- radu_floricica 5y ago
  Try sketching the math on a napkin. I assume you're in US - multiply the population with a monthly figure, then 12 months, and compare it with the current yearly budget.gonna be interesting, I promise.

washadjeffmad 5y ago

If I'm understanding, you're saying people will work for less than their value because there's either a capital or job supply isssue in their market, not because the cost or risk to an average person to just doing the work or starting their own business is so high that minimum wage is a more appealing proposition? It sounds more like labor is being artificially broken to deter people from asking for the value of their labor over accepting wage work. If Uber were a service to organize and empower workers by allowing them to set their own prices, how many do you think would continue working for less than minimum wage?

fxtentacle 5y ago
No I'm arguing that "value" here is strongly determined by supply and demand. And if you have an oversupply of people willing to work - because they literally have to work to survive - it drives down prices to unsustainable levels.