9 ms·

As a billionaire I am not sure he really needs to pump bitcoin to make a return. If you watch the interview with him he makes his case for holding bitcoin and i

As a billionaire I am not sure he really needs to pump bitcoin to make a return. If you watch the interview with him he makes his case for holding bitcoin and it is a reasonable one. He says when he started his career the Mexican peso was 20:1 to the US dollar, now it is 20,000:1. Many in developed countries don't understand the challenges of a devaluing currency with unlimited supply or the difficulty of being unbanked.

isatty 5y ago
Billionaires, just like everyone else, love making money.
- cqt100 5y ago
  Most people want to do honest work. If they didn't, everyone would be a parasite and the system would collapse.
  - holoduke 5y ago
    The reality is that 95% of the world population is doing shitty work and they would love becoming a parasite to escape their current live.
  - krferriter 5y ago
    Billionaires buying up all the real estate to ride the price wave is not "honest work"
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
WJW 5y ago
I'm pretty sure a billionaire does not need to worry about being unbanked even in Mexico. There are many other types of assets he could hold that would bring as much inflation protection as bitcoins with a fraction of the volatility. Now obviously in his particular case he's done pretty well with his hodlings because the price went up so much, but that is not guaranteed to happen again in the future and may in fact reverse. As long as it stays so incredibly volatile, holding bitcoin should be regarded as speculation first and an inflation hedge second.
- janandonly 5y ago
  Name one asset (class) that does as well as Bitcoin. Gold? No, it's only back at its 2012 peak now. Bonds? I'm laughing.... or crying... Stocks ... Could be, but very risky... because if QE stops tomorrow the stock market will correct -60% or more...
  - hellbannedguy 5y ago
    Cartel drug money. (Until Mexico gets a slight handle on systemic corruption in every aspect of that country; I have a hard time believing anything they claim about anything.)
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    Hah, love the delusion. Any mention of interest rate hikes and Bitcoin takes a dive too, because as far as I understand it, there's many borrowing cheap money (i.e. with low interest rate) to "invest" hoping to profit off the ponzi scheme.
    - celticninja 5y ago
      Do you have any sources for that?
    - zarzavat 5y ago
      Exactly how long does something have to hold its value for it to not be a "ponzi scheme?" Because I've been reading snide remarks about Ponzi schemes and tulip bubbles on HN since bitcoin was in the single figures.
      - Kbelicius 5y ago
        Madoff started his business in the early 60s and it operated until 2008. How long do you think something should hold its value til we can, with certainty, say that it is not a Ponzi scheme?
        5y ago
mrtksn 5y ago
The norm in this type of countries is to keep USD, EUR and property. Bitcoin is the way to get rich, at least the mental model is based on that. The inflation in these countries is not because of the way their economy is structured but because lack of structure and integrity. Things are not good in these countries, people don't seek to preserve the current wealth(and fail because of their currency) but they seek to get out of poverty and those who are not in poverty seek to explode their wealth so that the can buy a mansion and a Ferrari. The richer ones seek ways to hide their wealth out of the reach of the politics because in this type of countries the political situation is usually unstable and those who get very rich are cronies. When the crown falls the cronies need to have an exit strategy(sometimes they can adopt but sometimes the new crown comes with its own people) and that usually is buying property or companies overseas. Now they have the BTC option. Therefore, in such countries people don't really keep local currency long term already(when they do, they will do it to get interest rates that at least match the inflation). The inflation rate is relevant only when doing business deals, financing projects or purchases and adjusting employee salaries. No one is losing their wealth to inflation.
- xiphias2 5y ago
  ,, The norm in this type of countries is to keep USD, EUR and property'' It was while people had at least some hope to buy a property. But nowdays the yearly increase in a property price is more than the median yearly salary of a person in the poorer countries (this may soon be true for western countries as well). In Eastern Europe people immigrate to west for higher salaries so that they can buy an apartment in their home country, but if they don't use a loan to buy it, they are losing a lot of time to be able to buy a good place that they planned to. Still, as you wrote, in Europe people are still thinking very conservatively.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > the yearly increase in a property price is more than the median yearly salary of a person in the poorer countries This is not a limiting factor for billionaires looking to protect their wealth from expropriation, the use case the parent post contemplates.
DasIch 5y ago
> Many in developed countries don't understand the challenges of a devaluing currency with unlimited supply or the difficulty of being unbanked. I have to admit, being in a developed country, that I genuinely don't understand why someone would switch away from a local currency that is failing at the task of being a currency to a cryptocurrency like bitcoin that is also failing at being a currency.
- celticninja 5y ago
  Purchasing power of bitcoin over the last decade has increased, the purchasing power of the Mexican peso has consistently fallen. https://www.macrotrends.net/2559/us-dollar-mexican-peso-exchange-rate-historical-chart https://www.macrotrends.net/2559/us-dollar-mexican-peso-exch... The Venezuelan Bolivar is even worse. https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/currency https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/currency If you saw this happening to a close neighbour then you would also be worried about your own currency. Not saying that bitcoin is the salve they need, just that perhaps given that context you can understand why it appears like an attractive alternative to the local currency. Also USD and EUR may be better options but I dont think having accounts denominated in these currencies is easily available to many people in Venezuela or Mexico. I have only (last 3 years or so) been able to hold EUR or USD denominated accounts (relatively easily) and I am in the UK. I'm sure it was possible to do for longer than that but it required hoops to be jumped through that are not always the easiest.
  - DasIch 5y ago
    I agree that the Mexican peso and the Venezuelan Bolivar are not doing well, certainly you wouldn't want to use them as currency, if you can avoid it. I can also totally see people using bitcoin as a speculative investment. That's also not an argument in favour of bitcoin as a currency. > Also USD and EUR may be better options but I dont think having accounts denominated in these currencies is easily available to many people in Venezuela or Mexico. So bitcoin is used not because it's a good currency but because it's better than the available alternatives. I guess that makes sense.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
rxhernandez 5y ago
How is it 20,000:1? Google's conversion calculator has it around 20:1 right now.
- murukesh_s 5y ago
  if you see a 40 year period, inflation is 200k%? (wow) https://www.inflationtool.com/mexican-peso/1980-to-present-value https://www.inflationtool.com/mexican-peso/1980-to-present-v...
- kungito 5y ago
  From what I have heard was happening in my home country as well during hyperinflation, usually you don't have access to the foreign currencies, only the politically connected people to. Then they dump the forex into the black currency market at ridiculously inflated prices
  - notahacker 5y ago
    It's a lot easier for a poor person to find someone that will give them a dollar for their pesos than some satoshis...
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  Its 20,000:1 based on the old peso, because in 1993 the peso did what was in effect a 1,000:1 reverse split where 1,000 old pesos (1,000 MXP) were exchanged for 1 new peso (1 MXN).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
canadianfella 5y ago
You are a billionaire?
arcticbull 5y ago
> As a billionaire I am not sure he really needs to pump bitcoin to make a return. What makes you think that billionaires are somehow altruistic actors no longer looking for an ROI? Especially an easy one? [edit] Or that they're immune to speculative manias?
- SuoDuanDao 5y ago
  Anecdotal, but I recently wrote a book that had a quote from a prominent, successful person at the opening of each chapter. Part of my process was reaching out to the originators of these quotes and asking permission to include them. The result was fascinating. With exactly one exception (from a university professor) all the people I was able to contact were incredibly gracious and encouraging. Based on that experience I now believe that to have significant success really does require a reflexive attitude of generosity and gratitude. I don't think successful people are paragons by any means, but when I compare how they responded to how the average person would respond to a stranger asking a favour, I have to say - I'd definitely trust a random billionaire over a random member of my own social class.
  - karpierz 5y ago
    I don't know that it's really indicative of grace if you phone someone and ask "hey, I'm including quotes from prominent, successful people in a book, do you mind if I add you to it?" and they say yes. You haven't really asked them for a favour, really you're doing them a favour by improving their reputation.
    - SuoDuanDao 5y ago
      yes, but 'best of luck with the project', or 'sorry I don't have time to read an advance copy' goes beyond what's expected with that kind of power differential. I do think most average people would have felt much more entitled to someone admiring their thoughts.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
arkitaip 5y ago
Billionaires routinely conspire with politicians and law makers to prevent workers from earning a few dollars more per hour, but somehow they would would be too ethical to pump and dump Bitcoin?
economusty 5y ago
He can still leverage the bitcoin, he may be holding and not selling but that doesn't mean he isn't borrowing against the bitcoin and using the borrowed cash to make growth investments.
fedreserved 5y ago
Had to google that one. It seems your off. It's still 20_1 now. 20 pesos for every US Dollar
pibechorro 5y ago
Dont worry, they will soon. All developed countries have been bailing out banks etc by printint trillions. It will catch up to them. Good on him. Good on Mexico. Preserving the wealth of the middle class and giving access to the poor and unbanked is tye way forward for a more egalitarian society.
- null_object 5y ago
  > Good on Mexico. Preserving the wealth of the middle class and giving access to the poor and unbanked is tye way forward for a more egalitarian society. Genuine question - how is this going to help the "poor and unbanked" to get access to an economy that's somehow insulated from what you say is the inflation surrounding them? And in what concrete way is it leading to a more "egalitarian society"? As far as I can see, this only gives an opportunity to the already wealthy (and especially the super-wealthy) to increase their wealth at the cost of newcomers to the system. But I'm genuinely curious about the part that I'm missing, where the poorest in society are reaping the benefits of their Bitcoin holdings?
joshsyn 5y ago
Oh this so much. So many people are envious and think being a billionaire is a zero sum game.
throw0101a 5y ago
> As a billionaire I am not sure he really needs to pump bitcoin to make a return. It's not about making a return, or about having 'enough'. It's about keeping score, and the person with the highest number "wins".
nly 5y ago
All that matters to Mexicans is their local purchasing power though. Inflation in Mexico hasn't been that insane for the last 10 years. You have to look at wage growth and investment returns to really make a judgement

isatty 5y ago

Billionaires, just like everyone else, love making money.

cqt100 5y ago
Most people want to do honest work. If they didn't, everyone would be a parasite and the system would collapse.
- holoduke 5y ago
  The reality is that 95% of the world population is doing shitty work and they would love becoming a parasite to escape their current live.
- krferriter 5y ago
  Billionaires buying up all the real estate to ride the price wave is not "honest work"
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

WJW 5y ago

I'm pretty sure a billionaire does not need to worry about being unbanked even in Mexico. There are many other types of assets he could hold that would bring as much inflation protection as bitcoins with a fraction of the volatility. Now obviously in his particular case he's done pretty well with his hodlings because the price went up so much, but that is not guaranteed to happen again in the future and may in fact reverse. As long as it stays so incredibly volatile, holding bitcoin should be regarded as speculation first and an inflation hedge second.

janandonly 5y ago
Name one asset (class) that does as well as Bitcoin. Gold? No, it's only back at its 2012 peak now. Bonds? I'm laughing.... or crying... Stocks ... Could be, but very risky... because if QE stops tomorrow the stock market will correct -60% or more...
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  Cartel drug money. (Until Mexico gets a slight handle on systemic corruption in every aspect of that country; I have a hard time believing anything they claim about anything.)
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  Hah, love the delusion. Any mention of interest rate hikes and Bitcoin takes a dive too, because as far as I understand it, there's many borrowing cheap money (i.e. with low interest rate) to "invest" hoping to profit off the ponzi scheme.
  - celticninja 5y ago
    Do you have any sources for that?
  - zarzavat 5y ago
    Exactly how long does something have to hold its value for it to not be a "ponzi scheme?" Because I've been reading snide remarks about Ponzi schemes and tulip bubbles on HN since bitcoin was in the single figures.
    - Kbelicius 5y ago
      Madoff started his business in the early 60s and it operated until 2008. How long do you think something should hold its value til we can, with certainty, say that it is not a Ponzi scheme?
      - 5y ago

mrtksn 5y ago

The norm in this type of countries is to keep USD, EUR and property. Bitcoin is the way to get rich, at least the mental model is based on that. The inflation in these countries is not because of the way their economy is structured but because lack of structure and integrity. Things are not good in these countries, people don't seek to preserve the current wealth(and fail because of their currency) but they seek to get out of poverty and those who are not in poverty seek to explode their wealth so that the can buy a mansion and a Ferrari. The richer ones seek ways to hide their wealth out of the reach of the politics because in this type of countries the political situation is usually unstable and those who get very rich are cronies. When the crown falls the cronies need to have an exit strategy(sometimes they can adopt but sometimes the new crown comes with its own people) and that usually is buying property or companies overseas. Now they have the BTC option. Therefore, in such countries people don't really keep local currency long term already(when they do, they will do it to get interest rates that at least match the inflation). The inflation rate is relevant only when doing business deals, financing projects or purchases and adjusting employee salaries. No one is losing their wealth to inflation.

xiphias2 5y ago
,, The norm in this type of countries is to keep USD, EUR and property'' It was while people had at least some hope to buy a property. But nowdays the yearly increase in a property price is more than the median yearly salary of a person in the poorer countries (this may soon be true for western countries as well). In Eastern Europe people immigrate to west for higher salaries so that they can buy an apartment in their home country, but if they don't use a loan to buy it, they are losing a lot of time to be able to buy a good place that they planned to. Still, as you wrote, in Europe people are still thinking very conservatively.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > the yearly increase in a property price is more than the median yearly salary of a person in the poorer countries This is not a limiting factor for billionaires looking to protect their wealth from expropriation, the use case the parent post contemplates.

DasIch 5y ago

> Many in developed countries don't understand the challenges of a devaluing currency with unlimited supply or the difficulty of being unbanked. I have to admit, being in a developed country, that I genuinely don't understand why someone would switch away from a local currency that is failing at the task of being a currency to a cryptocurrency like bitcoin that is also failing at being a currency.

celticninja 5y ago
Purchasing power of bitcoin over the last decade has increased, the purchasing power of the Mexican peso has consistently fallen. https://www.macrotrends.net/2559/us-dollar-mexican-peso-exchange-rate-historical-chart https://www.macrotrends.net/2559/us-dollar-mexican-peso-exch... The Venezuelan Bolivar is even worse. https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/currency https://tradingeconomics.com/venezuela/currency If you saw this happening to a close neighbour then you would also be worried about your own currency. Not saying that bitcoin is the salve they need, just that perhaps given that context you can understand why it appears like an attractive alternative to the local currency. Also USD and EUR may be better options but I dont think having accounts denominated in these currencies is easily available to many people in Venezuela or Mexico. I have only (last 3 years or so) been able to hold EUR or USD denominated accounts (relatively easily) and I am in the UK. I'm sure it was possible to do for longer than that but it required hoops to be jumped through that are not always the easiest.
- DasIch 5y ago
  I agree that the Mexican peso and the Venezuelan Bolivar are not doing well, certainly you wouldn't want to use them as currency, if you can avoid it. I can also totally see people using bitcoin as a speculative investment. That's also not an argument in favour of bitcoin as a currency. > Also USD and EUR may be better options but I dont think having accounts denominated in these currencies is easily available to many people in Venezuela or Mexico. So bitcoin is used not because it's a good currency but because it's better than the available alternatives. I guess that makes sense.
- dragonwriter 5y ago

rxhernandez 5y ago

How is it 20,000:1? Google's conversion calculator has it around 20:1 right now.

murukesh_s 5y ago
if you see a 40 year period, inflation is 200k%? (wow) https://www.inflationtool.com/mexican-peso/1980-to-present-value https://www.inflationtool.com/mexican-peso/1980-to-present-v...
kungito 5y ago
From what I have heard was happening in my home country as well during hyperinflation, usually you don't have access to the foreign currencies, only the politically connected people to. Then they dump the forex into the black currency market at ridiculously inflated prices
- notahacker 5y ago
  It's a lot easier for a poor person to find someone that will give them a dollar for their pesos than some satoshis...
dragonwriter 5y ago
Its 20,000:1 based on the old peso, because in 1993 the peso did what was in effect a 1,000:1 reverse split where 1,000 old pesos (1,000 MXP) were exchanged for 1 new peso (1 MXN).

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

canadianfella 5y ago

You are a billionaire?

arcticbull 5y ago

> As a billionaire I am not sure he really needs to pump bitcoin to make a return. What makes you think that billionaires are somehow altruistic actors no longer looking for an ROI? Especially an easy one? [edit] Or that they're immune to speculative manias?

SuoDuanDao 5y ago
Anecdotal, but I recently wrote a book that had a quote from a prominent, successful person at the opening of each chapter. Part of my process was reaching out to the originators of these quotes and asking permission to include them. The result was fascinating. With exactly one exception (from a university professor) all the people I was able to contact were incredibly gracious and encouraging. Based on that experience I now believe that to have significant success really does require a reflexive attitude of generosity and gratitude. I don't think successful people are paragons by any means, but when I compare how they responded to how the average person would respond to a stranger asking a favour, I have to say - I'd definitely trust a random billionaire over a random member of my own social class.
- karpierz 5y ago
  I don't know that it's really indicative of grace if you phone someone and ask "hey, I'm including quotes from prominent, successful people in a book, do you mind if I add you to it?" and they say yes. You haven't really asked them for a favour, really you're doing them a favour by improving their reputation.
  - SuoDuanDao 5y ago
    yes, but 'best of luck with the project', or 'sorry I don't have time to read an advance copy' goes beyond what's expected with that kind of power differential. I do think most average people would have felt much more entitled to someone admiring their thoughts.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

arkitaip 5y ago

Billionaires routinely conspire with politicians and law makers to prevent workers from earning a few dollars more per hour, but somehow they would would be too ethical to pump and dump Bitcoin?

economusty 5y ago

He can still leverage the bitcoin, he may be holding and not selling but that doesn't mean he isn't borrowing against the bitcoin and using the borrowed cash to make growth investments.

fedreserved 5y ago

Had to google that one. It seems your off. It's still 20_1 now. 20 pesos for every US Dollar

pibechorro 5y ago

Dont worry, they will soon. All developed countries have been bailing out banks etc by printint trillions. It will catch up to them. Good on him. Good on Mexico. Preserving the wealth of the middle class and giving access to the poor and unbanked is tye way forward for a more egalitarian society.

null_object 5y ago
> Good on Mexico. Preserving the wealth of the middle class and giving access to the poor and unbanked is tye way forward for a more egalitarian society. Genuine question - how is this going to help the "poor and unbanked" to get access to an economy that's somehow insulated from what you say is the inflation surrounding them? And in what concrete way is it leading to a more "egalitarian society"? As far as I can see, this only gives an opportunity to the already wealthy (and especially the super-wealthy) to increase their wealth at the cost of newcomers to the system. But I'm genuinely curious about the part that I'm missing, where the poorest in society are reaping the benefits of their Bitcoin holdings?

joshsyn 5y ago

Oh this so much. So many people are envious and think being a billionaire is a zero sum game.

throw0101a 5y ago

> As a billionaire I am not sure he really needs to pump bitcoin to make a return. It's not about making a return, or about having 'enough'. It's about keeping score, and the person with the highest number "wins".

nly 5y ago

All that matters to Mexicans is their local purchasing power though. Inflation in Mexico hasn't been that insane for the last 10 years. You have to look at wage growth and investment returns to really make a judgement