5 ms·

While OP's trial is bigger, it should be noted that just like metformin treating epilepsy and T2 diabetes, a ketogenic diet also seems effective for this condit

While OP's trial is bigger, it should be noted that just like metformin treating epilepsy and T2 diabetes, a ketogenic diet also seems effective for this condition: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16190943/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16190943/

238475235243 5y ago
It is but compliance is generally lower in a world of Coke and donuts. People just want pills. On the plus side, we're slowly making the public aware that the DNA theory of cancer isn't actually right and that carbohydrate metabolism is much more powerful.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > It is but compliance is generally lower in a world of Coke and donuts. It's not just Coke and donuts. Even bacon and eggs don't reach the threshold of ketosis used in these studies. The pop-culture definition of a ketogenic diet is really more like Atkins or low-card than the ketogenic diets used in these studies. Ketosis at this level requires not only restricting carbohydrates, but restricting protein intake as well. This usually means drinking heavy whipping cream and oils.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Heavy whipping cream or butter in coffee isn’t bad on a keto diet.
    - PragmaticPulp 5y ago
      Ketogenic diets used in epilepsy go far beyond a bit of heavy whipping cream in your morning coffee. A classic ketogenic diet would require significant quantities of heavy whipping cream (or MCT oil or other oils) with every meal, including snacks. Wikipedia has a good example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet#Classic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet#Classic Doing a true ketogenic diet is hard work. Most of what people call ketogenic diets are actually more like Atkins or low-carb. Going into full ketosis requires significant protein restriction and augmenting with significant fat sources.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
        What do you consider “full ketosis?” Is that defined somewhere?
        toomuchtodo 5y ago
        There are test strips available to indicate your ketone levels. You're in ketosis once your blood ketone levels are at or above 0.5 mmol/L.
  - porknubbins 5y ago
    I did not find it as hard as that. I did it once by going under the carb limit (think it was 20g) for a couple of days eating things like bacon, eggs, avocado, steaks, oil dressing salads etc and was using strips to check for some keytones. Admittedly wasn’t trying to go long term as I don’t know how healthy my diet was but I definitely noticed some of the saiety and weight loss benefits claimed so I don’t think these so called “pop keto” people are necessarily deluded if they get reults.
- Herodotus38 5y ago
  What’s the DNA theory of cancer that isn’t actually right?
  - 238475235243 5y ago
    If you're a layperson try "Tripping over the Truth" by Travis Christofferson. If you have some biology try "Cancer as a Metabolic Disease" by Seyfried.
    - Herodotus38 5y ago
      How would that theory explain the association of radiation exposure with cancer, or sun exposure are cancer? Do those things alter your metabolism?
      - 238475235243 5y ago
        Damage to DNA and mitochondria is happening all the time, the question is what happens in the presence of high carbohydrate loads. If you read the books they'd tell you this.
        Herodotus38 5y ago
        How about cell cultures that are induced with viral vectors to become cancerous by the introduction of an oncogene? Do you think there is a difference in metabolism in the cells that become tumorigenic after transfection? If so why does it happen with introduction of an oncogene but not in the control vector when they have identical cell culture media/nutrients?
        238475235243 5y ago
        My bet is because more than one thing happens (some insult to the mitochondria in parallel, say) and/or because the gene is actually expressing something metabolic we don't understand. Seyfried (I think) actually points out the parallel metabolic influence of some therapies that we think are working genetically.
- sooheon 5y ago
  > DNA theory of cancer isn't actually right and that carbohydrate metabolism is much more powerful This is an unnecessary dichotomy. The Warburg effect has been theorized for almost a hundred years. It's not that only one of "DNA theory" vs. "cellular metabolism theory" can be right, the prevailing theory is that they are highly intertwined.
- Shorel 5y ago
  There are so many different cancer types, that stopping one kind doesn't affect the outcome of other kinds of cancer. So, yes, some cancer types are fed on carbohydrates, and if that's what people eat, they will get those cancers. If people have a better diet, a better kind of cancer will kill them. =) It is very infrequent to actually die of "old age" at over 100. And the common thing of all cancers is still they are DNA mutations. Having said that, yes, people should avoid a carbohydrate heavy diet, not only because it helps against common cancers, but because metabolic disease is just getting sick without any unavoidable reason.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Ketogenic diets were originally proposed as an epilepsy treatment because it was known to be effective against certain types of seizures. To be clear, a ketogenic diet is not as effective as modern anti-seizure medications. It can come close in about 1/3 of patients (~90% reduction in seizure frequency) but it's not effective for all patients and shouldn't be viewed as an alternative to medication for everyone. A secondary problem is that the modern definition of a ketogenic diet has become muddied as it has entered mainstream dieting culture. Many people who claim to be on ketogenic diets aren't actually consuming enough fat, or are consuming too much protein, to technically pass the thresholds required to reach the ketone levels used in these studies. The most common mistake is consuming too much protein. Contrary to popular belief, even fatty foods like bacon are not strictly ketogenic. In fact, it's difficult to reach classic ketogenic thresholds without augmenting with MCT oil, heavy whipping cream, or very large amounts of nuts. Most "keto" recipes online barely meet Atkins criteria, let alone full ketogenic diet ratios. Once people realize they have to literally drink heavy whipping cream or oils to stay in the levels of ketosis required for therapeutic effect, the medications don't sound so bad.
- seaorg 5y ago
  A bowl of 25% ground beef and 75% beef tallow is quite good.
- staticassertion 5y ago
  > Once people realize they have to literally drink heavy whipping cream [..] the medications don't sound so bad. sounds great tbh
  - deeviant 5y ago
    Sounds great until you realize that although some health markers improve on a ketogenic diet, all cause mortality significantly increases: https://www.escardio.org/The-ESC/Press-Office/Press-releases/Low-carbohydrate-diets-are-unsafe-and-should-be-avoided https://www.escardio.org/The-ESC/Press-Office/Press-releases...
    - 5y ago

238475235243 5y ago

It is but compliance is generally lower in a world of Coke and donuts. People just want pills. On the plus side, we're slowly making the public aware that the DNA theory of cancer isn't actually right and that carbohydrate metabolism is much more powerful.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> It is but compliance is generally lower in a world of Coke and donuts. It's not just Coke and donuts. Even bacon and eggs don't reach the threshold of ketosis used in these studies. The pop-culture definition of a ketogenic diet is really more like Atkins or low-card than the ketogenic diets used in these studies. Ketosis at this level requires not only restricting carbohydrates, but restricting protein intake as well. This usually means drinking heavy whipping cream and oils.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Heavy whipping cream or butter in coffee isn’t bad on a keto diet.
  - PragmaticPulp 5y ago
    Ketogenic diets used in epilepsy go far beyond a bit of heavy whipping cream in your morning coffee. A classic ketogenic diet would require significant quantities of heavy whipping cream (or MCT oil or other oils) with every meal, including snacks. Wikipedia has a good example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet#Classic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet#Classic Doing a true ketogenic diet is hard work. Most of what people call ketogenic diets are actually more like Atkins or low-carb. Going into full ketosis requires significant protein restriction and augmenting with significant fat sources.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
      What do you consider “full ketosis?” Is that defined somewhere?
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        There are test strips available to indicate your ketone levels. You're in ketosis once your blood ketone levels are at or above 0.5 mmol/L.
- porknubbins 5y ago
  I did not find it as hard as that. I did it once by going under the carb limit (think it was 20g) for a couple of days eating things like bacon, eggs, avocado, steaks, oil dressing salads etc and was using strips to check for some keytones. Admittedly wasn’t trying to go long term as I don’t know how healthy my diet was but I definitely noticed some of the saiety and weight loss benefits claimed so I don’t think these so called “pop keto” people are necessarily deluded if they get reults.
Herodotus38 5y ago
What’s the DNA theory of cancer that isn’t actually right?
- 238475235243 5y ago
  If you're a layperson try "Tripping over the Truth" by Travis Christofferson. If you have some biology try "Cancer as a Metabolic Disease" by Seyfried.
  - Herodotus38 5y ago
    How would that theory explain the association of radiation exposure with cancer, or sun exposure are cancer? Do those things alter your metabolism?
    - 238475235243 5y ago
      Damage to DNA and mitochondria is happening all the time, the question is what happens in the presence of high carbohydrate loads. If you read the books they'd tell you this.
      - Herodotus38 5y ago
        How about cell cultures that are induced with viral vectors to become cancerous by the introduction of an oncogene? Do you think there is a difference in metabolism in the cells that become tumorigenic after transfection? If so why does it happen with introduction of an oncogene but not in the control vector when they have identical cell culture media/nutrients?
        238475235243 5y ago
        My bet is because more than one thing happens (some insult to the mitochondria in parallel, say) and/or because the gene is actually expressing something metabolic we don't understand. Seyfried (I think) actually points out the parallel metabolic influence of some therapies that we think are working genetically.
sooheon 5y ago
> DNA theory of cancer isn't actually right and that carbohydrate metabolism is much more powerful This is an unnecessary dichotomy. The Warburg effect has been theorized for almost a hundred years. It's not that only one of "DNA theory" vs. "cellular metabolism theory" can be right, the prevailing theory is that they are highly intertwined.
Shorel 5y ago
There are so many different cancer types, that stopping one kind doesn't affect the outcome of other kinds of cancer. So, yes, some cancer types are fed on carbohydrates, and if that's what people eat, they will get those cancers. If people have a better diet, a better kind of cancer will kill them. =) It is very infrequent to actually die of "old age" at over 100. And the common thing of all cancers is still they are DNA mutations. Having said that, yes, people should avoid a carbohydrate heavy diet, not only because it helps against common cancers, but because metabolic disease is just getting sick without any unavoidable reason.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

Ketogenic diets were originally proposed as an epilepsy treatment because it was known to be effective against certain types of seizures. To be clear, a ketogenic diet is not as effective as modern anti-seizure medications. It can come close in about 1/3 of patients (~90% reduction in seizure frequency) but it's not effective for all patients and shouldn't be viewed as an alternative to medication for everyone. A secondary problem is that the modern definition of a ketogenic diet has become muddied as it has entered mainstream dieting culture. Many people who claim to be on ketogenic diets aren't actually consuming enough fat, or are consuming too much protein, to technically pass the thresholds required to reach the ketone levels used in these studies. The most common mistake is consuming too much protein. Contrary to popular belief, even fatty foods like bacon are not strictly ketogenic. In fact, it's difficult to reach classic ketogenic thresholds without augmenting with MCT oil, heavy whipping cream, or very large amounts of nuts. Most "keto" recipes online barely meet Atkins criteria, let alone full ketogenic diet ratios. Once people realize they have to literally drink heavy whipping cream or oils to stay in the levels of ketosis required for therapeutic effect, the medications don't sound so bad.

seaorg 5y ago
A bowl of 25% ground beef and 75% beef tallow is quite good.
staticassertion 5y ago
> Once people realize they have to literally drink heavy whipping cream [..] the medications don't sound so bad. sounds great tbh
- deeviant 5y ago
  Sounds great until you realize that although some health markers improve on a ketogenic diet, all cause mortality significantly increases: https://www.escardio.org/The-ESC/Press-Office/Press-releases/Low-carbohydrate-diets-are-unsafe-and-should-be-avoided https://www.escardio.org/The-ESC/Press-Office/Press-releases...
  - 5y ago