4 ms·

Crimea is part of the Ukraine. Just because it was invaded because Russia needs that strategic port doesn't mean it is not worth standing up to Russia. Don't

by ipaddr 5y ago

Crimea is part of the Ukraine. Just because it was invaded because Russia needs that strategic port doesn't mean it is not worth standing up to Russia. Don't you think the UK is better off protecting Ukraine, making friends and trying to prevent Russia from taking over another country or all of the Ukraine. Wouldn't a strong Ukraine make the UK safer?

pessimizer 5y ago
Crimea is currently populated by 70% ethnic Russians, who have been the majority for at least 50 years, and the plurality for at least 120 years. The reason it became part of Ukraine is because the USSR transferred it there from Russia in 1954. The only benefit to Europe and the US of complaining about the annexation is to put pressure on Russia. Nobody wants the ethnic cleansing that would occur if Russia actually retreated from Crimea (and any Russian politician, dictator or not, who allowed that to happen would lose their political career and maybe their life.) If it weren't for the horrifying virulence of Ukrainian nationalism, I'm sure a lot of the ethnically Russian residents would be glad to be separate from Russia. Do you seriously think that if the residents of Crimea freely voted, they would vote for a Russian retreat?
- jevgeni 5y ago
  Hey, how are the Crimean Tatars doing?
forgetfulness 5y ago
I'm sure the Russians could say the same thing about the UK and Gibraltar, down to the support of the local population to being a UK territory.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Of course. As a Russian I would want Russia to be right. As a Gibraltarian I would take their side. The original poster was a Brit and as a Brit taking Russia's side doesn't line up with long term strategic goals.
LatteLazy 5y ago
I think we'd be better making friends with Russia. I think making friends with anyone means making friends (trade, support, cultural exchange etc), not sending warships. If we provoke an incident and Ukraine pays the price I doubt they'll thank us. I also think crimea is a part of Russia. It was for 100s of years, most people who live there are Russian. The fact some drunken communist gave it away to an ally holds very little water compared to those factors. I also think that the cold War should have ended in the 1990s. Our insistence on continuing it is what created the Putin we see today. He used to be an internationalist. But the need for an enemy is too deep for us right now.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Being a friends means having their back when someone bigger attacks them. When times are good everyone wants to be your friend but a true will be there when you are down. Picking Russia as a friend because they are stronger makes you weaker.
  - LatteLazy 5y ago
    So you're proposing war with Russia over the Ukraine then? Because that's the alternative here. Fortunately it is possible to be friends with someone without fighting someone else. That's how 99% of friendships work 99% of the time. The US and UK are allies even though the US didn't fight Argentina in the Falklands and the UK never really engaged in Vietnam.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      If they tried to take over the entire Ukraine I would. If the Ukraine was part of NATO and Russia invades that triggers an automatic response. Troops would be sent. The UK didn't request assistance in the Falklands. No one attacked America in the Vietman war. The US was backing up the south Vietnam government.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > If the Ukraine was part of NATO and Russia invades that triggers an automatic response. No, it triggers treaty obligations. Adherence to those is not automatic. Of course, if NATO admitted Ukraine now, given that there is an ongoing war in which Russia is openly occupying part of Ukraine and attacking other parts, it would be very close to a declaration of war by the existing NATO powers against Russia. > The UK didn't request assistance in the Falklands NATO’s collective defense obligations only applies to attacks on member-state territory in Europe or North America. [0] The Falkland Islands are very much not in either of those continents. [0] North Atlantic Treaty, Article 5; https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.ht...
sudosysgen 5y ago
Do you care about politics or fact? De Facto, Crimea is simply under total Russian control, and there is no internal or external force that will change that for the foreseeable future. It being part of Ukraine is just a paper fiction.

by ipaddr 5y ago

pessimizer 5y ago

Crimea is currently populated by 70% ethnic Russians, who have been the majority for at least 50 years, and the plurality for at least 120 years. The reason it became part of Ukraine is because the USSR transferred it there from Russia in 1954. The only benefit to Europe and the US of complaining about the annexation is to put pressure on Russia. Nobody wants the ethnic cleansing that would occur if Russia actually retreated from Crimea (and any Russian politician, dictator or not, who allowed that to happen would lose their political career and maybe their life.) If it weren't for the horrifying virulence of Ukrainian nationalism, I'm sure a lot of the ethnically Russian residents would be glad to be separate from Russia. Do you seriously think that if the residents of Crimea freely voted, they would vote for a Russian retreat?

jevgeni 5y ago
Hey, how are the Crimean Tatars doing?

forgetfulness 5y ago

I'm sure the Russians could say the same thing about the UK and Gibraltar, down to the support of the local population to being a UK territory.

ipaddr 5y ago
Of course. As a Russian I would want Russia to be right. As a Gibraltarian I would take their side. The original poster was a Brit and as a Brit taking Russia's side doesn't line up with long term strategic goals.

LatteLazy 5y ago

I think we'd be better making friends with Russia. I think making friends with anyone means making friends (trade, support, cultural exchange etc), not sending warships. If we provoke an incident and Ukraine pays the price I doubt they'll thank us. I also think crimea is a part of Russia. It was for 100s of years, most people who live there are Russian. The fact some drunken communist gave it away to an ally holds very little water compared to those factors. I also think that the cold War should have ended in the 1990s. Our insistence on continuing it is what created the Putin we see today. He used to be an internationalist. But the need for an enemy is too deep for us right now.

ipaddr 5y ago
Being a friends means having their back when someone bigger attacks them. When times are good everyone wants to be your friend but a true will be there when you are down. Picking Russia as a friend because they are stronger makes you weaker.
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  So you're proposing war with Russia over the Ukraine then? Because that's the alternative here. Fortunately it is possible to be friends with someone without fighting someone else. That's how 99% of friendships work 99% of the time. The US and UK are allies even though the US didn't fight Argentina in the Falklands and the UK never really engaged in Vietnam.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    If they tried to take over the entire Ukraine I would. If the Ukraine was part of NATO and Russia invades that triggers an automatic response. Troops would be sent. The UK didn't request assistance in the Falklands. No one attacked America in the Vietman war. The US was backing up the south Vietnam government.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > If the Ukraine was part of NATO and Russia invades that triggers an automatic response. No, it triggers treaty obligations. Adherence to those is not automatic. Of course, if NATO admitted Ukraine now, given that there is an ongoing war in which Russia is openly occupying part of Ukraine and attacking other parts, it would be very close to a declaration of war by the existing NATO powers against Russia. > The UK didn't request assistance in the Falklands NATO’s collective defense obligations only applies to attacks on member-state territory in Europe or North America. [0] The Falkland Islands are very much not in either of those continents. [0] North Atlantic Treaty, Article 5; https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.ht...

sudosysgen 5y ago

Do you care about politics or fact? De Facto, Crimea is simply under total Russian control, and there is no internal or external force that will change that for the foreseeable future. It being part of Ukraine is just a paper fiction.