5 ms·

> You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese This is absolutely not true, at least in countries I've lived. Do I believe that someone

by ska 5y ago

> You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese This is absolutely not true, at least in countries I've lived. Do I believe that someone in the USA is capable of producing very good feta? Absolutely! And I've had some. However, the vast majority of what you will find in the typical grocery stores isn't very good, majority of it notably inferior not only to the imports, but random stuff I've bought in, say, Greece or Israel etc. [edit for clarity] I'd be all for something a bit less restrictive, but anything goes approach just leads to a glut of low quality approximations riding on the cachet of the name until the name becomes meaningless. You can argue that this gives consumer choice (i.e. I'd rather pay $2 for feta then $5) but it doesn't give accurate information, which is also bad.

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
No offense, but there's nothing particularly special about Feta produced in Greece. Feta-style cheeses are produced across a fairly wide region in the Eastern Mediterranean, and I don't think the style is so singular that it can't be (or isn't) authentically reproduced elsewhere. More generally, I can understand consumer protections that focus on the nature of the product itself, but where the product comes from is irrelevant. If the goal were simply to make sure that Feta always tastes like "authentic" Feta, then the regulations would focus on ingredients, process and the final product. But regulations about where the product is produced exist because producers want to exclude competition. Lawmakers do, of course, argue that they're just trying to protect consumers, because that's what they have to do in order to justify the policy, but the goal is obviously to help Greek cheese-makers, French viniculturalists, etc.
- ska 5y ago
  Greece was just an example, hence the “say” it’s not close to my favourite. My point stands, there is a huge gulf in the US and Canada, UK (smaller experience with local feta there but it wasn’t good) etc. I wouldn’t support a GI limited to Greece , edited to clear that up. I suspect we are making compatible points - you that other countries exist that make good feta by default (true!) - me that countries exist where the default is not good (at least to my taste) and definitely distinguishable from the former category (also true). I guess feta is a good example of the problem of defining these things by region not process. I feel pretty confident that "feta" shouldn't belong to any one country in the region with a tradition of making it; on the other hand differentiating it from cheap knock offs also makes sense to me.
  - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
    My point is mainly that these are producer protections masquerading as consumer protections. I would have no problem with a definition of "feta" that focused on things like the ingredients, process or qualities of the resulting cheese. Those are the sorts of things that a law intended to protect consumers would focus on. Instead, the EU defines "feta" by region (with some ingredient and process requirements as well), which is simply an attempt to benefit producers. I just want a bit of honesty about what these sorts of laws are intended to achieve. In my opinion, the "feta" geographical indication is a particularly absurd case, since "feta" is just the modern Greek name for a type of cheese that's been produced throughout the Balkans and in Turkey since time immemorial. Greek cheese-makers are lucky that their name for the cheese became international (as opposed, say, to the Serbo-Croat name for the cheese), and now they're cashing in on it.
    - ska 5y ago
      > My point is mainly that these are producer protections masquerading as consumer protections. And my point is that this is not true; that they are both, and it's important. So I guess we are disagreeing after all :) I think a non-region tied version of this would be great, but "anything goes" is probably worse than current state. Of course any sensible discussion about the producer protection side has to look at duties and quotas too, which makes things more complicated.
      - SiempreViernes 5y ago
        There are protections that aren't tied to regions, called Traditional speciality guaranteed (https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farming-fisheries/food-safety-and-quality/certification/quality-labels/quality-schemes-explained_en#tsg https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farming-fisheries/food-safety...). The "problem" is that typically when there is a strong food brand, it also has a strong geographic association, and so TSG is available only for lesser brands.
    - barrkel 5y ago
      What about consumers that want a guarantee on the production? Can you see a world where consumers and producers are not in opposition, and actually have some alignment of interests?
- cheese_goddess 5y ago
  > If the goal were simply to make sure that Feta always tastes like "authentic" Feta, then the regulations would focus on ingredients, process and the final product. But regulations about where the product is produced exist because producers want to exclude competition. This is not true and you don't know things as well as you think you do. PDO regulations absolutely focus precisely on ingredients, process and the final product. For example, PDO regulations for feta stipulate, among other details, that it must be made with sheep's milk with the addition of up to 30% goat's milk and that the milk must come from animals born and bred in the Greek regions of Thessaly, Thrace, Epirus, Macedonia, Central Greece, Peloponse and Lesvos, from the breeds adapted to the area and reared by traditional methods. The fat content of the milk must be at least 6% w/w and the pH of the milk before the cheese is made must be at least 6.5. The milk must be made into cheese at most 48 hours after milking. The finished cheese must be aged for at least two months in brine containing 7% NaCl w/w. The final product must be a cheese "distinguished by its slightly acid and salty taste and its properties of mild lipolysis" (lipolysis imparts a piquant taste to cheese), with a maximum water content of 58%, minimum fat content of 43%, and 2% salt in water. There are more detailed instructions here: https://ec.europa.eu/geographical-indications-register/eambrosia-public-api/api/v1/attachments/59999 https://ec.europa.eu/geographical-indications-register/eambr... So the PDO regulates the provenance of the sheep milk, as well as the location the cheese is manufactured, but obviously the focus is on the quality and organoleptic characterisics of the ingredients in the specified territories, and that because the same characteristics are not reproducible in different territories (for example because the breeds of milk producing animals are different and the flora they feed on, and therefore the soil bacteria that flavour this flora, are different). I also note that most "feta" cheese made outside Greece is actually made with cow's milk. For example, this was the case with French, German and Danish "feta" before Greece successfully defended its PDO and it is still the case today for feta made in the US. I'm not sure about Australia, but it's probably the same there. In Greece, cheese made in the same way as feta but with cow's milk is called "telemes" and is also a PDO cheese. As far as I can tell, no "feta" cheese made outside Greece has the piquant taste imparted to cheese milk by lipases, that characterises Greek feta.
  - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
    > PDO regulations absolutely focus precisely on ingredients, process and the final product. Lots of food types that are not geographic indications have strict requirements on ingredients, process, finished product. The geographic restriction for "feta" serves no purpose except to favor the producers who lobbied for the geographic indication. You could strip off the geographic restriction, and you'd have a normal food quality regulation. > I also note that most "feta" cheese made outside Greece is actually made with cow's milk. Feta cheese has been made throughout the Eastern Mediterranean for ages, primarily using sheep's and goat's milk. There's nothing particularly special or distinctive or uniform about Greek feta. The historical reason why the geographic indication is limited to Greece is that it was created by the Greek government (i.e., it was a protectionist measure passed by the government to benefit its own cheese-makers). Greece then lobbied the EU to adopt the geographic indication. That's why the PDO is limited to Greece - not because what the Greeks call "feta" is different from cheeses produced in the same way right across the border in Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria or Turkey.

by ska 5y ago

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago

No offense, but there's nothing particularly special about Feta produced in Greece. Feta-style cheeses are produced across a fairly wide region in the Eastern Mediterranean, and I don't think the style is so singular that it can't be (or isn't) authentically reproduced elsewhere. More generally, I can understand consumer protections that focus on the nature of the product itself, but where the product comes from is irrelevant. If the goal were simply to make sure that Feta always tastes like "authentic" Feta, then the regulations would focus on ingredients, process and the final product. But regulations about where the product is produced exist because producers want to exclude competition. Lawmakers do, of course, argue that they're just trying to protect consumers, because that's what they have to do in order to justify the policy, but the goal is obviously to help Greek cheese-makers, French viniculturalists, etc.

ska 5y ago
Greece was just an example, hence the “say” it’s not close to my favourite. My point stands, there is a huge gulf in the US and Canada, UK (smaller experience with local feta there but it wasn’t good) etc. I wouldn’t support a GI limited to Greece , edited to clear that up. I suspect we are making compatible points - you that other countries exist that make good feta by default (true!) - me that countries exist where the default is not good (at least to my taste) and definitely distinguishable from the former category (also true). I guess feta is a good example of the problem of defining these things by region not process. I feel pretty confident that "feta" shouldn't belong to any one country in the region with a tradition of making it; on the other hand differentiating it from cheap knock offs also makes sense to me.
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  My point is mainly that these are producer protections masquerading as consumer protections. I would have no problem with a definition of "feta" that focused on things like the ingredients, process or qualities of the resulting cheese. Those are the sorts of things that a law intended to protect consumers would focus on. Instead, the EU defines "feta" by region (with some ingredient and process requirements as well), which is simply an attempt to benefit producers. I just want a bit of honesty about what these sorts of laws are intended to achieve. In my opinion, the "feta" geographical indication is a particularly absurd case, since "feta" is just the modern Greek name for a type of cheese that's been produced throughout the Balkans and in Turkey since time immemorial. Greek cheese-makers are lucky that their name for the cheese became international (as opposed, say, to the Serbo-Croat name for the cheese), and now they're cashing in on it.
  - ska 5y ago
    > My point is mainly that these are producer protections masquerading as consumer protections. And my point is that this is not true; that they are both, and it's important. So I guess we are disagreeing after all :) I think a non-region tied version of this would be great, but "anything goes" is probably worse than current state. Of course any sensible discussion about the producer protection side has to look at duties and quotas too, which makes things more complicated.
    - SiempreViernes 5y ago
      There are protections that aren't tied to regions, called Traditional speciality guaranteed (https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farming-fisheries/food-safety-and-quality/certification/quality-labels/quality-schemes-explained_en#tsg https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farming-fisheries/food-safety...). The "problem" is that typically when there is a strong food brand, it also has a strong geographic association, and so TSG is available only for lesser brands.
  - barrkel 5y ago
    What about consumers that want a guarantee on the production? Can you see a world where consumers and producers are not in opposition, and actually have some alignment of interests?
cheese_goddess 5y ago
> If the goal were simply to make sure that Feta always tastes like "authentic" Feta, then the regulations would focus on ingredients, process and the final product. But regulations about where the product is produced exist because producers want to exclude competition. This is not true and you don't know things as well as you think you do. PDO regulations absolutely focus precisely on ingredients, process and the final product. For example, PDO regulations for feta stipulate, among other details, that it must be made with sheep's milk with the addition of up to 30% goat's milk and that the milk must come from animals born and bred in the Greek regions of Thessaly, Thrace, Epirus, Macedonia, Central Greece, Peloponse and Lesvos, from the breeds adapted to the area and reared by traditional methods. The fat content of the milk must be at least 6% w/w and the pH of the milk before the cheese is made must be at least 6.5. The milk must be made into cheese at most 48 hours after milking. The finished cheese must be aged for at least two months in brine containing 7% NaCl w/w. The final product must be a cheese "distinguished by its slightly acid and salty taste and its properties of mild lipolysis" (lipolysis imparts a piquant taste to cheese), with a maximum water content of 58%, minimum fat content of 43%, and 2% salt in water. There are more detailed instructions here: https://ec.europa.eu/geographical-indications-register/eambrosia-public-api/api/v1/attachments/59999 https://ec.europa.eu/geographical-indications-register/eambr... So the PDO regulates the provenance of the sheep milk, as well as the location the cheese is manufactured, but obviously the focus is on the quality and organoleptic characterisics of the ingredients in the specified territories, and that because the same characteristics are not reproducible in different territories (for example because the breeds of milk producing animals are different and the flora they feed on, and therefore the soil bacteria that flavour this flora, are different). I also note that most "feta" cheese made outside Greece is actually made with cow's milk. For example, this was the case with French, German and Danish "feta" before Greece successfully defended its PDO and it is still the case today for feta made in the US. I'm not sure about Australia, but it's probably the same there. In Greece, cheese made in the same way as feta but with cow's milk is called "telemes" and is also a PDO cheese. As far as I can tell, no "feta" cheese made outside Greece has the piquant taste imparted to cheese milk by lipases, that characterises Greek feta.
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  > PDO regulations absolutely focus precisely on ingredients, process and the final product. Lots of food types that are not geographic indications have strict requirements on ingredients, process, finished product. The geographic restriction for "feta" serves no purpose except to favor the producers who lobbied for the geographic indication. You could strip off the geographic restriction, and you'd have a normal food quality regulation. > I also note that most "feta" cheese made outside Greece is actually made with cow's milk. Feta cheese has been made throughout the Eastern Mediterranean for ages, primarily using sheep's and goat's milk. There's nothing particularly special or distinctive or uniform about Greek feta. The historical reason why the geographic indication is limited to Greece is that it was created by the Greek government (i.e., it was a protectionist measure passed by the government to benefit its own cheese-makers). Greece then lobbied the EU to adopt the geographic indication. That's why the PDO is limited to Greece - not because what the Greeks call "feta" is different from cheeses produced in the same way right across the border in Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria or Turkey.