5 ms·

I've been using Windows 10 since it's initial release and have never had telemetry automatically re enabled. I check the relevant settings regularly (every few

I've been using Windows 10 since it's initial release and have never had telemetry automatically re enabled. I check the relevant settings regularly (every few months). I have no idea what all people on HN are doing that causes this to happen so frequently to them but it's never been a real problem. I wish I knew what I was doing differently so I could make a blog post about it haha.

zinekeller 5y ago
I mean, what the HN and tech in general (edit: not general - sorry) audience wants is a totally zero telemetry, even if said telemetry is literally the list of installed updates. I personally think that's genuinely weird to me, since that Microsoft's "basic" telemetry only sends critical data like how many times Windows crash (and actually has the data reduced from 2015's state).
- nightski 5y ago
  Yeah, knowing how much telemetry has helped me improve the user experience in the internal apps I work on I really don't think it is that evil. I think people just wish it was easier to enable/disable and that Microsoft was more transparent about it.
  - zinekeller 5y ago
    I think that the possibility of abuse (which has happened), possibility of government requesting that data (also happened, plus people here tends to be not inclined to give their data to any government), and possibility of leakage (general leakage not happened with Microsoft, but there's state-level hacks) means that even telemetry is tainted with privacy issues.
  - skohan 5y ago
    As someone who has worked on user-facing software, the part which bothers me the most is the reversal of user settings. MS is really bad about this, and even broke a linux install on a separate partition on my machine by changing the UEFI settings after an update without asking me. If I shipped software which did this, I would feel like I had to turn in my developer card.
    - K0SM0S 5y ago
      Frankly this, as a developer. I call them "showstoppers" and if there is a god of programming, they are the ultimate sin. Things like - breaking a user's multiboot - deleting user data Even if these are not bugs and merely the result of bad UX (lack of warnings and security for the user). Deletion of all user data upon upgrade was a common 'problem' with earlier versions of Windows (I remember having such problems into the XP era, and I hear it happened to people on W10). Breaking other installs by MS is a common theme too in dual boot setups (whereas Linux bootloaders are more likely to pick up the Win install and offer access to it). I remember vividly the last time it happened to me. I had been dual-booting Linux for some time (on a personal laptop dedicated to work). It was my first Linux OS, I was a newbie (precisely learning bash, programming for servers, etc). After some update, Win10 broke my dual boot. I was livid. It took me the better part of a weekend to fix it and avoid loosing all my work of several months (a lot of it was in the form of system files all over the place, I had no idea how to retrieve all that without ad hoc commands etc, and I had no idea what e.g. chroot was at the time. I learned, the hard way, haha — btw thx to the Arch Wiki for that weekend. It was a life saver). The very next thing when I got access back to my Linux OS was to backup all my data, format everything and reinstall Linux fresh. And that was it. I've never used Windows ever since as my primary driver, only for testing purposes in VMs. That was 2016 iirc. There are such things as showstoppers that make you instantly drop a product, never to look back. Microsoft's Windows desktop team never learned that, I don't know how they still pretend to be for "professionals". You don't do that to people who make a living with their computer (i.e. the vast majority of businesses nowadays).
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        > "- breaking a user's multiboot" I have tried mutiboot with different Linux distros too and had it broken too many times, eventually I got sick of this shit. Fixing the bootloader should be a simple process but requires you to sacrifice a goat. Never multiboot again, if I need another OS it goes in a VM. When I absolutely have to, I install another OS on a separate drive with it's own bootloader and select the one I want in BIOS. That is actually reliable and never breaks.
  - dataflow 5y ago
    s/easier/possible/
- slver 5y ago
  It has become a meme to be "outraged" about companies collecting any data. People don't analyze if this collection impacts them or not. They react as if the company wants their first-born.
  - reaperducer 5y ago
    It doesn't matter if it impacts them or not. It's a violation of the social privacy standards that have existed for centuries. Someone looking in the window and making an inventory of all my furniture doesn't impact me in any way. But it's still an invasion of privacy and wrong from the standpoint of common human decency. A concept that has become lost to a generation that's become acclimated to thinking this is normal. It is not.
    - slver 5y ago
      > It doesn't matter if it impacts them or not. It's a violation of the social privacy standards that have existed for centuries. I have no idea where you're getting this from. Governments regularly perform national census, and collect data from all kinds of institutions to inform their policy. Banks constantly analyze your bank accounts and activity. Utilities meter your use for both billing and their own planning. This is not someone "looking in the window" this is two parties (you and the company providing some service or product to you) needing to exchange data so each can do their work properly. Those "privacy standards" you cite that have existed for centuries... that's not a thing. It seems to be based on falsifying the history and present of how humans organize and govern systems out of ignorance. Data gathering IS the "normal". Of course it's been very limited and cumbersome before, now it's easier thanks to IT. So if your only argument is a vague discomfort from this not being "normal"... you have no argument.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
        > This is not someone "looking in the window" this is two parties (you and the company providing some service or product to you) needing to exchange data so each can do their work properly. The electric company probably needs to know usage for billing. Microsoft does not need any information about Windows users for the product to work. Even things like fetching updates doesn't need to leak information, although I'll grant that it's a little bit more work to avoid leaking any data.
- tester756 5y ago
  >audience wants is a totally zero telemetry does that audience lacks of experience with developing software?
varispeed 5y ago
How do you check that telemetry is disabled? Do you inspect packets that come out of your network card?
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Well kinda yeah... MS is one of the biggest contributors to blocked requests on my pihole.
gruez 5y ago
AFAIK it's tied to feature updates. If you have them disabled or use LTSC you basically never get settings randomly changed behind your back.
- neogodless 5y ago
  Like parent, I run a mix of Pro and Home machines with feature updates enabled, and my privacy/telemetry settings have not been changed back mysteriously. So I too wonder what I'm doing differently.

zinekeller 5y ago

I mean, what the HN and tech in general (edit: not general - sorry) audience wants is a totally zero telemetry, even if said telemetry is literally the list of installed updates. I personally think that's genuinely weird to me, since that Microsoft's "basic" telemetry only sends critical data like how many times Windows crash (and actually has the data reduced from 2015's state).

nightski 5y ago
Yeah, knowing how much telemetry has helped me improve the user experience in the internal apps I work on I really don't think it is that evil. I think people just wish it was easier to enable/disable and that Microsoft was more transparent about it.
- zinekeller 5y ago
  I think that the possibility of abuse (which has happened), possibility of government requesting that data (also happened, plus people here tends to be not inclined to give their data to any government), and possibility of leakage (general leakage not happened with Microsoft, but there's state-level hacks) means that even telemetry is tainted with privacy issues.
- skohan 5y ago
  As someone who has worked on user-facing software, the part which bothers me the most is the reversal of user settings. MS is really bad about this, and even broke a linux install on a separate partition on my machine by changing the UEFI settings after an update without asking me. If I shipped software which did this, I would feel like I had to turn in my developer card.
  - K0SM0S 5y ago
    Frankly this, as a developer. I call them "showstoppers" and if there is a god of programming, they are the ultimate sin. Things like - breaking a user's multiboot - deleting user data Even if these are not bugs and merely the result of bad UX (lack of warnings and security for the user). Deletion of all user data upon upgrade was a common 'problem' with earlier versions of Windows (I remember having such problems into the XP era, and I hear it happened to people on W10). Breaking other installs by MS is a common theme too in dual boot setups (whereas Linux bootloaders are more likely to pick up the Win install and offer access to it). I remember vividly the last time it happened to me. I had been dual-booting Linux for some time (on a personal laptop dedicated to work). It was my first Linux OS, I was a newbie (precisely learning bash, programming for servers, etc). After some update, Win10 broke my dual boot. I was livid. It took me the better part of a weekend to fix it and avoid loosing all my work of several months (a lot of it was in the form of system files all over the place, I had no idea how to retrieve all that without ad hoc commands etc, and I had no idea what e.g. chroot was at the time. I learned, the hard way, haha — btw thx to the Arch Wiki for that weekend. It was a life saver). The very next thing when I got access back to my Linux OS was to backup all my data, format everything and reinstall Linux fresh. And that was it. I've never used Windows ever since as my primary driver, only for testing purposes in VMs. That was 2016 iirc. There are such things as showstoppers that make you instantly drop a product, never to look back. Microsoft's Windows desktop team never learned that, I don't know how they still pretend to be for "professionals". You don't do that to people who make a living with their computer (i.e. the vast majority of businesses nowadays).
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      > "- breaking a user's multiboot" I have tried mutiboot with different Linux distros too and had it broken too many times, eventually I got sick of this shit. Fixing the bootloader should be a simple process but requires you to sacrifice a goat. Never multiboot again, if I need another OS it goes in a VM. When I absolutely have to, I install another OS on a separate drive with it's own bootloader and select the one I want in BIOS. That is actually reliable and never breaks.
- dataflow 5y ago
  s/easier/possible/
slver 5y ago
It has become a meme to be "outraged" about companies collecting any data. People don't analyze if this collection impacts them or not. They react as if the company wants their first-born.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  It doesn't matter if it impacts them or not. It's a violation of the social privacy standards that have existed for centuries. Someone looking in the window and making an inventory of all my furniture doesn't impact me in any way. But it's still an invasion of privacy and wrong from the standpoint of common human decency. A concept that has become lost to a generation that's become acclimated to thinking this is normal. It is not.
  - slver 5y ago
    > It doesn't matter if it impacts them or not. It's a violation of the social privacy standards that have existed for centuries. I have no idea where you're getting this from. Governments regularly perform national census, and collect data from all kinds of institutions to inform their policy. Banks constantly analyze your bank accounts and activity. Utilities meter your use for both billing and their own planning. This is not someone "looking in the window" this is two parties (you and the company providing some service or product to you) needing to exchange data so each can do their work properly. Those "privacy standards" you cite that have existed for centuries... that's not a thing. It seems to be based on falsifying the history and present of how humans organize and govern systems out of ignorance. Data gathering IS the "normal". Of course it's been very limited and cumbersome before, now it's easier thanks to IT. So if your only argument is a vague discomfort from this not being "normal"... you have no argument.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
      > This is not someone "looking in the window" this is two parties (you and the company providing some service or product to you) needing to exchange data so each can do their work properly. The electric company probably needs to know usage for billing. Microsoft does not need any information about Windows users for the product to work. Even things like fetching updates doesn't need to leak information, although I'll grant that it's a little bit more work to avoid leaking any data.
tester756 5y ago
>audience wants is a totally zero telemetry does that audience lacks of experience with developing software?

varispeed 5y ago

How do you check that telemetry is disabled? Do you inspect packets that come out of your network card?

GekkePrutser 5y ago
Well kinda yeah... MS is one of the biggest contributors to blocked requests on my pihole.

gruez 5y ago

AFAIK it's tied to feature updates. If you have them disabled or use LTSC you basically never get settings randomly changed behind your back.

neogodless 5y ago
Like parent, I run a mix of Pro and Home machines with feature updates enabled, and my privacy/telemetry settings have not been changed back mysteriously. So I too wonder what I'm doing differently.