7 ms·

The argument is that the details matter. Slightly different breeds of animal, different weather conditions, or different bacterial ecosystems affect the resulti

The argument is that the details matter. Slightly different breeds of animal, different weather conditions, or different bacterial ecosystems affect the resulting cheese. You can make something similar to these products elsewhere, but it won't be exactly the same. Some products are famous and specific enough that customers have a right to be able to know when it's the real deal (and there are many such customers - otherwise these names wouldn't matter at all). If you want to produce something similar, you can start a new brand with other local businesses (Australeta say), label it Feta-like until customers recognize and choose it because they like it. You can agree whatever rules you like between you for how it's made and what constitutes 'real' Australeta so you have a consistent quality product. You can even do that and register your own new protected name - see the recent split of Corpinnat from Cava as a recent real-world example: https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2019/02/nine-producers-break-with-cava-to-form-corpinnat/ https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2019/02/nine-producers-bre...

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
I always feel these arguments are a bit disingenuous. You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese apart from "Feta-like" cheese produced in any number of places around the world. These laws are not about protecting the consumer from inauthentic products. They're about protecting producers from competition. Exclusive ownership of famous culinary names like "Feta" and "Champagne" is valuable, and local producers throughout the EU want that edge and lobby to obtain it. Benefiting certain producers in this manner may be something that's worthwhile doing, but we should at least be honest about what the real goal of the policy is.
- dirtyid 5y ago
  Maybe time for neutral WHO naming conventions to apply. Champagne is officially F.5.231 or something inane that confers little marketing benefit.
  - dantheman 5y ago
    Just put where it's manufactured on the label - that's really all that matters.
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      That is literally what Champagne is: the name of a place in France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_(province) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_(province)
      - snovv_crash 5y ago
        That's disingenuous. If I buy a wine labelled "Champagne" I expect a dry sparkling wine, not a random red wine from a certain region in France. It is used to indicate product type, not origin.
        distances 5y ago
        You can't buy red wine with the name champagne, that's a silly notion. I expect champagne to match not only the wine type, but also quality requirements, specific production methods, grape types, and yes also area of production.
        snovv_crash 5y ago
        That's exactly the point I was making, a different variety of wine wouldn't be champagne. And it would behoof you to note the order of matching you yourself presented. Area of production comes last. Just wait until the Germans join the fun, with Hamburg having the copyright on Hamburgers and Frankfurt on Frankfurters.
        marticode 5y ago
        It's both. It's like Idaho potatoes, you expect some type of potato but also some geographic origin. When the product type is also a location you can't easily untangle either.
- ben_w 5y ago
  I’ve never tried American-made “feta”, but I have tried American-made “cheddar”, and it’s so far from the real stuff it’s closer to “vegan cheese”. If this is due to generally lower standards, or actually because of the differences in milk and/or bacterial cultures, I couldn’t possibly comment. But it is noticeable.
  - ska 5y ago
    There is actually some very good American cheddar, although mostly it's a bit different than the "real" thing. However, it's become a staple through massive production of something quite different. I imagine a lot of it has to do with inputs, there has been a race to the bottom for milk prices which means both breeds and feed compromise on taste for volume, all milk is pasteurized, minimal aging is done in massive blocks, etc.
  - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
    "Cheddar cheese" has been produced in America for hundreds of years - the technique was brought over by English colonists. There are many different types of "cheddar" in the US now, including several different regional cheddars (think Vermont cheddar and Wisconsin cheddar). Some are more like English cheddar, some are quite different. But it would be silly to insist that only cheddar from Cheddar in England can be called "cheddar."
    - fennecfoxen 5y ago
      Cheddaring is a manufacturing technique where you stack the loaves of cheese curds, to squeeze out some additional whey.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- ska 5y ago
  > You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese This is absolutely not true, at least in countries I've lived. Do I believe that someone in the USA is capable of producing very good feta? Absolutely! And I've had some. However, the vast majority of what you will find in the typical grocery stores isn't very good, majority of it notably inferior not only to the imports, but random stuff I've bought in, say, Greece or Israel etc. [edit for clarity] I'd be all for something a bit less restrictive, but anything goes approach just leads to a glut of low quality approximations riding on the cachet of the name until the name becomes meaningless. You can argue that this gives consumer choice (i.e. I'd rather pay $2 for feta then $5) but it doesn't give accurate information, which is also bad.
  - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
    No offense, but there's nothing particularly special about Feta produced in Greece. Feta-style cheeses are produced across a fairly wide region in the Eastern Mediterranean, and I don't think the style is so singular that it can't be (or isn't) authentically reproduced elsewhere. More generally, I can understand consumer protections that focus on the nature of the product itself, but where the product comes from is irrelevant. If the goal were simply to make sure that Feta always tastes like "authentic" Feta, then the regulations would focus on ingredients, process and the final product. But regulations about where the product is produced exist because producers want to exclude competition. Lawmakers do, of course, argue that they're just trying to protect consumers, because that's what they have to do in order to justify the policy, but the goal is obviously to help Greek cheese-makers, French viniculturalists, etc.
    - ska 5y ago
      Greece was just an example, hence the “say” it’s not close to my favourite. My point stands, there is a huge gulf in the US and Canada, UK (smaller experience with local feta there but it wasn’t good) etc. I wouldn’t support a GI limited to Greece , edited to clear that up. I suspect we are making compatible points - you that other countries exist that make good feta by default (true!) - me that countries exist where the default is not good (at least to my taste) and definitely distinguishable from the former category (also true). I guess feta is a good example of the problem of defining these things by region not process. I feel pretty confident that "feta" shouldn't belong to any one country in the region with a tradition of making it; on the other hand differentiating it from cheap knock offs also makes sense to me.
- Zababa 5y ago
  > These laws are not about protecting the consumer from inauthentic products. They're about protecting producers from competition. Yes, they are, and I have no problem with that. When I buy "Comté", I want the money to go in the region where my grandparents were born and raised, where we spent lots of vacations visiting museum, caves and enjoying the local cheese. I don't want some kind of global industry stealing the name "Comté" to help sell a knockoff. These days Comté is not my favorite cheese, I have a soft sport for Italian cheeses and discovered recently some Eastern European ones that are delicious. But when I want Comté, I want Comté, made in Jura, by Montbéliardes cows. If they don't respect this, it's not Comté.
  - jhrozek 5y ago
    Off topic but which Eastern European cheese did you find that you like? The only ones I even saw sold outside its are of origin were usually underwhelming. I’m originally from central/Eastern Europe and know very small and local producers but I’m really interested in what you found you can buy in your area.
    - Zababa 5y ago
      I have no idea how to pronounce it, but one I really like is I think a braided and smoked cheese like this one: https://dks22p812qygs.cloudfront.net/UserFiles/ib_product/14858963105890fa767d324-500x400.jpg https://dks22p812qygs.cloudfront.net/UserFiles/ib_product/14... The other that I really like looks a bit like this: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0250/1387/8893/products/Arroyo_Sardo_Wheel.jpg?v=1573914953 http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0250/1387/8893/products/Arr... but I think that it's younger than the one here. I have no doubts that the local ones are probably way better, but I still haven't taken the time to visit Eastern/Central Europe.
      - dionys 5y ago
        the first one is called Korbaciky (found in Slovakia/Poland) https://st4.depositphotos.com/1046564/41431/i/1600/depositphotos_414317284-stock-photo-different-traditional-smoked-unsmoked-slovakian.jpg https://st4.depositphotos.com/1046564/41431/i/1600/depositph... There are both un-smoked and smoked variants, different shapes etc. I think the traditional is the braided one. Definitely recommended if you ever visit Orava/Tatras.
- cheese_goddess 5y ago
  > You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese apart from "Feta-like" cheese produced in any number of places around the world. That's not true, because most feta produced outside Greece is made with cow's milk, rather than sheep and goat's milk. In Greece it's made with sheep and goat's milk. Why does that make any difference? First, because cow's milk is relatively tasteless compared to sheep and goat's milk. Goat's milk in particular has a strong "gamey" flavour and sheep's milk is also "heavier" than cow's milk. Sheep's milk also has a different composition than cow's milk. Depending on breeds and season, sheep's milk has almost double the amount of fats and proteins (caseins and whey proteins) than cow's milk (and also goat's milk, which is about the same as cow's milk in composition). More importantly, feta made with sheep and goat's milk has a piquant taste imparted by the lipolysis that is the result of lipases found particularly in goat's milk. Although to be fair, lipases are nowadays added to cheese milk as an additive, because they are destroyed by pasteurisation (and most Greek cheeses are not made with raw milk). However in practice lipases are never added to cow's milk "feta" possibly because consumers used to cow's milk "feta" don't expect it to be spicy-hot, as real feta should be. There's also various other organoleptic characteristics that distinguish sheep and goat's milk cheeses from cow's milk, for example the firmness of the paste - more elastic in cow's milk cheeses, more crumbly in sheep and goat's cheeses. etc. etc. tl;dr, yes, you can absolutely tell the difference between Greek feta and "feta" from outside Greece, provided you know what Greek feta tastes like. Which I think you probably don't. I think you're just assuming that it must all be a big bunch of lies to sell cheese that's just the same as any cheese. Well, it's not.
  - DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
    I've had feta in Greece and feta elsewhere in the Balkans. The range of differences between feta cheeses produced in different parts of Greece is not necessarily smaller than the difference between a feta produced in Epirus (Northwest Greece) and Albania (possibly even by Greek Albanians!). The geographic indication is nonsensical if the point is to ensure uniform quality or taste. It sounds like what you're most worried about is Northern European producers using cow's milk, but there are producers throughout the Eastern Mediterranean using sheep's and goat's milk.

DiogenesKynikos 5y ago

I always feel these arguments are a bit disingenuous. You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese apart from "Feta-like" cheese produced in any number of places around the world. These laws are not about protecting the consumer from inauthentic products. They're about protecting producers from competition. Exclusive ownership of famous culinary names like "Feta" and "Champagne" is valuable, and local producers throughout the EU want that edge and lobby to obtain it. Benefiting certain producers in this manner may be something that's worthwhile doing, but we should at least be honest about what the real goal of the policy is.

dirtyid 5y ago
Maybe time for neutral WHO naming conventions to apply. Champagne is officially F.5.231 or something inane that confers little marketing benefit.
- dantheman 5y ago
  Just put where it's manufactured on the label - that's really all that matters.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    That is literally what Champagne is: the name of a place in France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_(province) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_(province)
    - snovv_crash 5y ago
      That's disingenuous. If I buy a wine labelled "Champagne" I expect a dry sparkling wine, not a random red wine from a certain region in France. It is used to indicate product type, not origin.
      - distances 5y ago
        You can't buy red wine with the name champagne, that's a silly notion. I expect champagne to match not only the wine type, but also quality requirements, specific production methods, grape types, and yes also area of production.
        snovv_crash 5y ago
        That's exactly the point I was making, a different variety of wine wouldn't be champagne. And it would behoof you to note the order of matching you yourself presented. Area of production comes last. Just wait until the Germans join the fun, with Hamburg having the copyright on Hamburgers and Frankfurt on Frankfurters.
      - marticode 5y ago
        It's both. It's like Idaho potatoes, you expect some type of potato but also some geographic origin. When the product type is also a location you can't easily untangle either.
ben_w 5y ago
I’ve never tried American-made “feta”, but I have tried American-made “cheddar”, and it’s so far from the real stuff it’s closer to “vegan cheese”. If this is due to generally lower standards, or actually because of the differences in milk and/or bacterial cultures, I couldn’t possibly comment. But it is noticeable.
- ska 5y ago
  There is actually some very good American cheddar, although mostly it's a bit different than the "real" thing. However, it's become a staple through massive production of something quite different. I imagine a lot of it has to do with inputs, there has been a race to the bottom for milk prices which means both breeds and feed compromise on taste for volume, all milk is pasteurized, minimal aging is done in massive blocks, etc.
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  "Cheddar cheese" has been produced in America for hundreds of years - the technique was brought over by English colonists. There are many different types of "cheddar" in the US now, including several different regional cheddars (think Vermont cheddar and Wisconsin cheddar). Some are more like English cheddar, some are quite different. But it would be silly to insist that only cheddar from Cheddar in England can be called "cheddar."
  - fennecfoxen 5y ago
    Cheddaring is a manufacturing technique where you stack the loaves of cheese curds, to squeeze out some additional whey.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
ska 5y ago
> You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese This is absolutely not true, at least in countries I've lived. Do I believe that someone in the USA is capable of producing very good feta? Absolutely! And I've had some. However, the vast majority of what you will find in the typical grocery stores isn't very good, majority of it notably inferior not only to the imports, but random stuff I've bought in, say, Greece or Israel etc. [edit for clarity] I'd be all for something a bit less restrictive, but anything goes approach just leads to a glut of low quality approximations riding on the cachet of the name until the name becomes meaningless. You can argue that this gives consumer choice (i.e. I'd rather pay $2 for feta then $5) but it doesn't give accurate information, which is also bad.
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  No offense, but there's nothing particularly special about Feta produced in Greece. Feta-style cheeses are produced across a fairly wide region in the Eastern Mediterranean, and I don't think the style is so singular that it can't be (or isn't) authentically reproduced elsewhere. More generally, I can understand consumer protections that focus on the nature of the product itself, but where the product comes from is irrelevant. If the goal were simply to make sure that Feta always tastes like "authentic" Feta, then the regulations would focus on ingredients, process and the final product. But regulations about where the product is produced exist because producers want to exclude competition. Lawmakers do, of course, argue that they're just trying to protect consumers, because that's what they have to do in order to justify the policy, but the goal is obviously to help Greek cheese-makers, French viniculturalists, etc.
  - ska 5y ago
    Greece was just an example, hence the “say” it’s not close to my favourite. My point stands, there is a huge gulf in the US and Canada, UK (smaller experience with local feta there but it wasn’t good) etc. I wouldn’t support a GI limited to Greece , edited to clear that up. I suspect we are making compatible points - you that other countries exist that make good feta by default (true!) - me that countries exist where the default is not good (at least to my taste) and definitely distinguishable from the former category (also true). I guess feta is a good example of the problem of defining these things by region not process. I feel pretty confident that "feta" shouldn't belong to any one country in the region with a tradition of making it; on the other hand differentiating it from cheap knock offs also makes sense to me.
Zababa 5y ago
> These laws are not about protecting the consumer from inauthentic products. They're about protecting producers from competition. Yes, they are, and I have no problem with that. When I buy "Comté", I want the money to go in the region where my grandparents were born and raised, where we spent lots of vacations visiting museum, caves and enjoying the local cheese. I don't want some kind of global industry stealing the name "Comté" to help sell a knockoff. These days Comté is not my favorite cheese, I have a soft sport for Italian cheeses and discovered recently some Eastern European ones that are delicious. But when I want Comté, I want Comté, made in Jura, by Montbéliardes cows. If they don't respect this, it's not Comté.
- jhrozek 5y ago
  Off topic but which Eastern European cheese did you find that you like? The only ones I even saw sold outside its are of origin were usually underwhelming. I’m originally from central/Eastern Europe and know very small and local producers but I’m really interested in what you found you can buy in your area.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    I have no idea how to pronounce it, but one I really like is I think a braided and smoked cheese like this one: https://dks22p812qygs.cloudfront.net/UserFiles/ib_product/14858963105890fa767d324-500x400.jpg https://dks22p812qygs.cloudfront.net/UserFiles/ib_product/14... The other that I really like looks a bit like this: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0250/1387/8893/products/Arroyo_Sardo_Wheel.jpg?v=1573914953 http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0250/1387/8893/products/Arr... but I think that it's younger than the one here. I have no doubts that the local ones are probably way better, but I still haven't taken the time to visit Eastern/Central Europe.
    - dionys 5y ago
      the first one is called Korbaciky (found in Slovakia/Poland) https://st4.depositphotos.com/1046564/41431/i/1600/depositphotos_414317284-stock-photo-different-traditional-smoked-unsmoked-slovakian.jpg https://st4.depositphotos.com/1046564/41431/i/1600/depositph... There are both un-smoked and smoked variants, different shapes etc. I think the traditional is the braided one. Definitely recommended if you ever visit Orava/Tatras.
cheese_goddess 5y ago
> You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese apart from "Feta-like" cheese produced in any number of places around the world. That's not true, because most feta produced outside Greece is made with cow's milk, rather than sheep and goat's milk. In Greece it's made with sheep and goat's milk. Why does that make any difference? First, because cow's milk is relatively tasteless compared to sheep and goat's milk. Goat's milk in particular has a strong "gamey" flavour and sheep's milk is also "heavier" than cow's milk. Sheep's milk also has a different composition than cow's milk. Depending on breeds and season, sheep's milk has almost double the amount of fats and proteins (caseins and whey proteins) than cow's milk (and also goat's milk, which is about the same as cow's milk in composition). More importantly, feta made with sheep and goat's milk has a piquant taste imparted by the lipolysis that is the result of lipases found particularly in goat's milk. Although to be fair, lipases are nowadays added to cheese milk as an additive, because they are destroyed by pasteurisation (and most Greek cheeses are not made with raw milk). However in practice lipases are never added to cow's milk "feta" possibly because consumers used to cow's milk "feta" don't expect it to be spicy-hot, as real feta should be. There's also various other organoleptic characteristics that distinguish sheep and goat's milk cheeses from cow's milk, for example the firmness of the paste - more elastic in cow's milk cheeses, more crumbly in sheep and goat's cheeses. etc. etc. tl;dr, yes, you can absolutely tell the difference between Greek feta and "feta" from outside Greece, provided you know what Greek feta tastes like. Which I think you probably don't. I think you're just assuming that it must all be a big bunch of lies to sell cheese that's just the same as any cheese. Well, it's not.
- DiogenesKynikos 5y ago
  I've had feta in Greece and feta elsewhere in the Balkans. The range of differences between feta cheeses produced in different parts of Greece is not necessarily smaller than the difference between a feta produced in Epirus (Northwest Greece) and Albania (possibly even by Greek Albanians!). The geographic indication is nonsensical if the point is to ensure uniform quality or taste. It sounds like what you're most worried about is Northern European producers using cow's milk, but there are producers throughout the Eastern Mediterranean using sheep's and goat's milk.