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Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

• PaulHoule 5y ago
  Would a vacation help?
  • crispyambulance 5y ago
    Yes, from the employer point of view, this is why vacations exist. A vacation would have helped to avoid this. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed. The OP situation looks like burn-out. If someone has reached actual burn-out, a mere 2 weeks isn't going to be enough. I think a lot of people are going through this now working without boundaries and no real vacation, it leads to really bad outcomes. Burn-out is serious.
    • ggm 5y ago
      Coming back from a break if it is burn-out can be worse. You hit the same walls you left 2 weeks before, with a stronger sense of what you want in your life, implicitly "not this" Can be restated as an upside: "makes things clear"
    • HWR_14 5y ago
      Do you have any good suggestions for people suffering from burnout. Once they get beyond the "a few weeks off will fix this" starting stages of burnout.
    • isatty 5y ago
      Not everyone is the same - 2 weeks is better than nothing.
      • crispyambulance 5y ago
        I agree. A solid 2 week vacation with absolutely no contact with work will be helpful. Coming back, however, is going to be difficult. If the workplace is setup for inescapable "nose-to-the-grindstone" KPI's that have consequences for someone that has been underperforming, it could get ugly if the OP needs more time to reset themselves. In many places, however, a few months of slump isn't going to lead to a PIP if the OP can go through the motions and practice enough self-care to gradually get better. I think enough folks are going through this now that employers are aware it's widespread problem. Some will handle it better than others, of course.
• sircastor 5y ago
  I’ve found that when most managers ask questions, they’re just trying to get a sense of what’s going on. I wouldn’t over analyze it. I would also suggest that honest answers are the best. If you’re having a hard time doing the work, is there something else you could be doing? As much as it doesn’t feel like it, companies do not want to fire employees. It’s expensive to lose someone who knows the business, and expensive to hire someone. Or maybe WFH has exposed that the work just isn’t worth doing and indicates it’s time to move on.
  • giantg2 5y ago
    I think that depends highly on the work and company. I think Amazon warehouse or delivery has over 100% annual turnover. Clearly they don't care.
    • marcus_holmes 5y ago
      And that makes them a bad employer. Eventually they're going to hit a wall with this and be forced to change.
      • giantg2 5y ago
        Will they though? They have been increasing their use of robotics. Other low skill jobs have too (miso's burger flipper). There are still college kids and low skill people that need jobs. It seems the continual supply with shrinking job positions will enable them to continue doing this.
        • marcus_holmes 5y ago
          It'll be interesting to see how the union efforts play out. Historically this has been a major problem for bad employers. If they automate the whole thing and have robot pickers, that'll be awesome too. About time. I used to work as a picker, and it's not a fun job. Especially the way Amazon runs their warehouses.
  • barnaclejive 5y ago
• traway123 5y ago
  Well, it's better than the talk my manager gave me, "Looks like you're not as productive lately? What's going on? This place (bay area) is small, everyone knows everyone. Your reputation will follow you."
  • giantg2 5y ago
    Mine said, "Come with me, we have to talk.". Then told me how I was about to be let go. I got to transfer in time.
  • felipellrocha 5y ago
    That right there is your manager projecting their fear onto you.
    • wccrawford 5y ago
      Perhaps, but it's also a very clear attempt to mentally manipulate the employee. It's one of the signs of an abusive relationship. It's the same as saying, "If you fail me, I will ruin you."
  • JMTQp8lwXL 5y ago
    The world is far too big for anyone to care as to a minute detail of "Developer John Doe didn't meet my productivity metrics". That's worthy of a (mental) eye roll. Workers in this industry, at the moment, have the leverage, not the employers.
    • LimaBearz 5y ago
      True but the tech world IS small. I’m not coming to the defense of the business or management but there is some truth to it. Everyone is only a degree or two from anyone else in the BA, and you bet your ass people ping old coworkers about candidates that land on someone’s desk. You may eyeroll but if you have a trusted coworker ping someone and they come back with “he was the most unsuccessful junior dev I’ve ever met” (a real personal story) that guy does and did end up at the bottom of a waste basket
• giantg2 5y ago
  "In software this would be the equivalent of just writing components or html for an extended period of time without any variety, which is soulcrushing." I actually want less variety. I never get consistent work. How can I be an expert if I don't have a steady type of work. I'm really struggling right now. A lot of that is because I know that anything I learn at work will be used once and then thrown away. What's the point of learning it at all? For example, right now they want me to learn AWS Step Functions to automate our regression testing. The first thought I had was "there's nothing else I can see us using this for on our team". My second thought was "how will this work when the test data constantly changes and the tester's time is dominated by troubleshooting issues, mostly data issues". I want strategy I can believe in and a role that allows me to grow into a respected expert. My only option is to switch jobs which is depressing (not a lot of good stuff out there for me based on my past). It sounds like this is anyone's best option when the underlying issue is dissatisfaction with the work.
  • iheartlife 5y ago
    You could try to become a respected expert in learning then? There is a lot of use for people who can pick up XYZ in a timely manner. Especially in software where the world moves so fast (unless you do C or similar) that yesteryears knowledge is outdated this year.
    • rraihansaputra 5y ago
      Personally I think the kind of work I do rewards learning things/executing things fast. I take extended periods of doing the same things as a.. bonus? Things will always change, and in FE development I feel like it's all integration. Which is fine for me, and what I want to sharpen is to be quick and have a feel of what kind of integration does the business/story/ticket needs. Balancing that with maintainability and teamwork is what's interesting. The programming part is only a tool for me. I'm happy that I get paid to solve problems mainly with my programming/abstract thinking skills instead of managing skills or negotiation skills; not programming itself.
    • giantg2 5y ago
      But it's usually not respected. You end up like me - an intermediate developer who is willing to pick up the shit tasks that nobody else wants. The only thing that will help get to higher compensation or a senior role is to become an expert to the point where you can leave and get a job almost anywhere. Stuff like FileNet, Neoxam, ASC, etc doesn't have a market. It's a necessary and important role for the company, but nobody wants to do them and very few people use them (or procedures for ASC vary too much).
• bfung 5y ago
  As someone in the mgmt position, the “checkin” chat generally means either written or real time communication probably isn’t happening enough. If your mgr isn’t reaching out, you yourself should reach out to them; even a quick weekly update works. If the work is repetitive and rote, a tech person should take initiative and automate it away! There’s always human problems behind the tech problem - stop writing yet another CRUD api/microservice and find out the human issues and automate those away!
• bbunix 5y ago
  Hopefully your manager has noticed and you'll have a chat. If you trust each other, which isn't a given, tell them what's going on. Especially during the pandemic, I've had people go through varying levels of productivity. Maybe it's depression, boredom, personal stuff, burnout, whatever. We're human beings. I've been allow to institute mental health days - if the month doesn't have a (US) federal holiday, book a day off. If you're really burning out, let's see what we can do about that - also involves time off. Depending on what area you're in (I'm in devops), it costs probably 6 months of your salary to replace you, plus it's hard, and all your knowledge leaves with you. Plus people remember when you back them up - it means a lot on a human level. It's been done for me and I do my best to pass it on. Good luck.
• barnaclejive 5y ago
  Uh... curious, what did they actually fill in the "____" with? > or if you've been spending more time doing ___ Like, are they referring to other work-related tasks that maybe they shouldn't be focusing on, or are they suggesting non-work stuff is going on (even if that is that case), cause that would seem like a huge red flag to gtfo asap.
• cjensen 5y ago
  Please don't assume the question is "disingenuous." It's an invitation to talk about what's going on, and bring the manager into the loop. Most managers really do want to help! More concerning to me is the "I always lose my job or quit." It sounds a lot like you're running into a pattern in your life which causes you to underperform. If it's emotional or mental, please consider seeking counseling. Brain chemistry can send a person on a roller coaster, and counselors really can help. If the problem is simply that you are bored with the work, then could you move on sooner to a new job? Better to find new stuff than get bored so much it affects your work.
  • mgarfias 5y ago
    Not just brain stuff, I’m a walking example of weird hormone issues screwing up my ability to work well
    • atatatat 5y ago
      Endocrine -> nervous -> brain..?
    • cjensen 5y ago
      Right? We all have our issues. When it affects our wellbeing we should all remember to try to get help. If the Medical profession can't make it all better, many managers will accommodate -- it's actually easier to accommodate someone who is trying to get help.
  • ratww 5y ago
    > Please don't assume the question is "disingenuous." It's an invitation to talk about what's going on, and bring the manager into the loop. Most managers really do want to help! ^ That's a very important reply. Whenever I send one of those messages like OP quoted, what I really mean is to ask if there's anything I can do to help. A manager is not an old-school "boss" responsible for cracking the whip. Managers exist to coordinate, organise, bridge communication, remove obstacles... It takes several conversations with higher-ups and with HR for a manager to fire someone, and if I fire people too often people start questioning my ability to hire and manage. However I notice that the specific message on OP is a bit ambiguous, I would personally add some suggestions ("do this instead", "let's ask X for help, they have experience with this kinda stuff").
• jimmaswell 5y ago
  > while sitting in our apartment with the sun shining outside You can always go work at a park with wifi or something for variety.
  • wetmore 5y ago
    I know what it's like to see the sun shining outside and lose all motivation to work. I know it's well-meaning, but whenever someone suggests that I work outside when I feel that way, I feel like they are missing the point. I don't want to be outdoors on my computer, I want to be outdoors experiencing and engaging with the world.
    • mehphp 5y ago
      I get it, but at the same time, it's not your manager or even your job that is stopping you in the end. It's the fact that you need to work to support yourself. You _can_ decide to just go outside instead of working, but then you're stuck with no money. Unless you end up making FU money, I see no way out of this conundrum.
• mixmastamyk 5y ago
  First, take a few weeks off to find your bearings. That way you can make a decision with a clear head.
• geocrasher 5y ago
  My response: "That's a great question, and I think it would be better to have a face-to-face chat on [slack,teams,meet,whatever] so we can communicate clearly. It shouldn't take more than an hour. Let me know what works for you."
• arrosenberg 5y ago
  It sounds like the manager may have an intuition that your partner is burned out and is giving them an opening to discuss it. Generally if a person has done good work in the past, and now they aren't, there is a reason for it, and clear communication is the quickest way to surface and resolve the issue. This is somewhat situation dependent - some workplaces are truly toxic. > how can a company expect to retain employees/contractors if the only work available is the same tedium over a long period of time Not everyone is that ambitious. Lots of people made a good life out of pulling the same levers for 30 years in a Ford plant. If you are ambitious, go somewhere that has room for it. If you find a happy little niche, there is also nothing wrong with being happy occupying it.
  • iNane9000 5y ago
    Agree with everything but also want to note pulling levers for 30 years is correlated with unionization in those industries. Jobs were protected by unions even if it meant higher costs and lower productivity.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  • browningstreet 5y ago
    At the last tech place I worked, they celebrated the 25 year tenure of an employee who had essentially the same job for all 25 years -- he created accounts and passwords for users. It's a SF based tech-ish company, one y'all have heard of, and as I did my consulting gig there, floating through the wave of SMEs and ICs and Directors and VPs and the history of all those who had left or been fired, I thought about that guy and why he stayed where he stayed. He also had notable records and accomplishments in a not-lucrative sport, so I figured the stability and unbothered job position he had let him achieve notable things in the rest of his life. If he'd gotten a mortgage 25 years ago and lived within in his means, I bet his net worth exceeded many of the Directors and new VPs that churned through the place.
    • hef19898 5y ago
• thaumaturgy 5y ago
  I've sent out almost exactly this message recently. Obviously I can't decode what your particular manager means by it. In my case, yes, it's a check-in, or an invitation to have a conversation, because I've noticed something isn't working and my job is to figure it out and make it work better. I prefer to know when somebody doesn't like some aspect of their job. Sometimes I can do something about it, sometimes I can't, but either way I can't do anything about it if I don't know what the problem is. There are people who are perfectly happy doing the same thing every day, in fact they prefer it. Sometimes those people have personal problems that are affecting their performance and maybe there's an opportunity to provide some short-term flexibility to help. If someone has gotten stuck with mundane work and they aren't a good fit for that kind of work, that's important to know. For me, a message like that is never a prelude to a termination. That's pretty much the very last thing I want to do. It sucks. It might be necessary, but I'd rather avoid it. It becomes necessary when there is no other solution available and the organization can't just absorb the loss in productivity. Getting radio silence or a non-answer from the employee takes a whole lot of other solutions off the table. But let's set all of that aside for a moment. A more critical problem here IMO is that your friend is doing themselves a disservice. Being stuck doing something you hate for half your waking hours is a bad way to live. Sometimes you need a paycheck, but your friend should be trying to figure a way out of this situation ASAP. Talk to the manager, or start job hunting, or start making other decisions that allow them to not need that specific paycheck.
• NikolaNovak 5y ago
  Where I work, depending on exactly how it was phrased, that would be a genuine, earnest, proactive hint from manager that a) They've noticed that you are not performing at your norm and b) They want to understand your circumstances, tactfully, and help & support. How an employee responds to that depends on many factors: The relationship employee and manager have, the trust between them, the motivation on employee side to be open and honest and look at mutually-beneficial alternatives, remain in that team/company, etc. It also depends on culture of the company, and hugely on just the person - what they want and how they want to approach it. Not knowing any of those factors, I cannot suggest how you or your partner should approach it; however, how I would approach it, and how I hope my team members approach it is: 1. Be as open as comfortable, as detailed as productive about: a) What you feel is your impacted performance, e.g. "I don't feel I'm creating code to my standard of quality" or "I've noticed it's become difficult for me to concentrate in afternoon meetings" or whatever it may be b) Circumstances / causes you may be of that. Again, personal comfort and relationship/trust are a factor. I would feel comfortable talking to my manager "My newborn is keeping me up at night, and the 7am daily standup puts me between rock and hard place", or "My A/C is not working and I'm finding it hard to mentally focus when my office is 30C", all the way to something as longterm as "I don't mind remote work on daily or weekly basis, but i've noticed over last 12 months that I've lost some subtle motivation, internal vision of the goal and camaraderie" (fwiw, I've discussed these three with my manager last 6 months). Your relationship may be more formal/distant however, so you may be more comfortable being more generic or abstract. Note managers are highly constrained in HR and rules WHAT they can ask you; that doesn't mean they don't want to know/support - it just means burden is on you to volunteer that information. Here, e.g. Manager CAN NOT ask you if you have a medical problem and what it is; but you are allowed to volunteer it (NOTE: this is specific to my province in my country; check your local religation) and they are then allowed to support you with it. 2. Come prepared, if possible, with proposals and compromises. It's awesome if you come to manager not just with problem, but possible solution "Would it be possible for me to skip 7am daily standup, to ensure I am rested and productive rest of the day?" "I think I might be more productive on QA then on development for next few months as it would motivate me and engage different part of my brain" "I cannot maintain the tempo of operations in the long term, but I think my ops experience could really make me a productive release manager / developer / whatever to support this team" etc etc etc 3. Be positive, open, non-confrontational. Explore possibilities together. Give their proposals a chance; sleep on them if that's what it takes to remove initial negative gut-reaction. ... Hope this helps a bit, and good luck! :)
• rorykoehler 5y ago
  As a manager your success is my success. If I bring something like this up it is because I want to fix it. I mean I'm not immune to fluctuations in performance either and anyone with even the slightest bit of empathy will understand that.
• an_opabinia 5y ago
  > Just wanted to check in It sounds like you already know this is a firing email. The best thing is to reset your career. Graduate school is a very good way to do this. Get some wins, it will pep you up. > how can a company expect to retain employees/contractors if the only work available is the same tedium over a long period of time, and no way to change that? Getting fired sucks dude.
  • tempestn 5y ago
    That's a pretty huge leap. I'll regularly send check-in messages like this to my employees, both if their work does appear to be suffering, but also just literally to check in and get up to speed on where their focus is. And even in cases where work is suffering, my hope is very much to be able to resolve the issue! Getting fired does suck, but firing people also sucks. Not as much, certainly, but it's not like it's something you'd choose to do when there are alternatives.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• onimishra 5y ago
  It really depends on where you’re based and what level of trust you have in the manager. In some countries a company will go quite far to keep their employees - it’s expensive to both hire and then train new ones. In others, the manager gets measured just as much and he needs his bonus (or simply just his salary) as much as you do. Either way, there isn’t much you can do if the burnout is real, other than being honest. Explain why you’re feeling burned out, perhaps even come up with suggestions to how it potentially could be mitigated. A good manager will try to accommodate you in some way. If they’ve been with the company for a long time, they might even have experience with dealing with burned out staff or have the option to shuffle some tasks around to give a tiny bit of variety. If he can’t and just lets you go, then the deadline just moved - if you were burning out, it would eventually have come to this anyway. Hard to hear, harder to experience but nothing to do but look for something new with more meat on it :)
• uyt 5y ago
  When this happened to me I decided to just tell my manager the truth. He honestly didn't even realize I was having issues and he reacted to it by firing me. Mentally, I was in a place where I was kind of happy that my suffering can finally end. On the other hand, if I had just kept my mouth shut I could've probably zombied my way through for a lot longer.
  • AussieWog93 5y ago
    Just a heads up to anyone reading this and feeling like they can't speak to their manager when they're having issues with burnout or stress: not all managers will react the way parent's did, and depending on where you live (pretty much any first-world country outside the US?) it may be outright illegal to fire you like that.
    • uyt 5y ago
      I didn't get fired on the spot or anything. He put me on a PIP (performance improvement plan). If you fail that then they use it as the paper trail to fire you.
      • switch007 5y ago
        Yup. Most companies have HR and they know exactly what to do. Your manager will often be compelled to tell their boss, so just relying on your relationship with your boss is a risky move.
• maxk42 5y ago
  From a manager's point of view: This person just wants to know what you're up to. It's not a judgement, it's a simple query. It can be solved via additional communication. Probably best to do on the phone so there's no confusion but email works also. > how can a company expect to retain employees/contractors if the only work available is the same tedium over a long period of time, and no way to change that? Actually, once you've established that you're capable you can usually ask for assignments / work that interests you more. This also requires additional communication. Even if there's nothing immediately available, your manager will keep it in mind when looking forward to the kinds of work you express interest in.
• 238475235243 5y ago
  I've quit and failed out of many jobs and I've also been a manager multiple times of medium-sized teams in highly demanding environments. I've been on both sides of the table. My advice isn't orthodox, but it's real. The first question is, is your manager some kind of psychopath? If they are then just quit and move on. It's painful. Maybe it will work out so you should stay. They're really nice underneath... all that stuff. No. Just quit. It won't get better. They won't change. They won't suddenly care about you. You're done. Move on. If they aren't a psychopath then just level with them. Be completely honest that you're burning out right now and you need a break, or a different role, or you don't know and you need help. They will either fire you immediately and you can move on, or they'll figure out a way to help you. From a managers point of view this is fantastic - a report is telling you what they need, or they need help. The worst employees are the ones that are just a continual problem. If you flag that you're a short-term problem, or a solvable problem or a problem that needs help this is 1,000x better than someone who's a problem every day. A good manager is a human being. They truly want to help. They'll ignore or figure out a way around the corporate stuff. If they aren't a human being, just move on. If you are a continual problem, don't be mad if they move on from you. Most managers, I think, have only had two types of people with "performance problems". Type 1: A real problem. Your cat died. Your parent died. You broke a leg. Your car crashed. You just don't like your role. All of these are ok. We're all human. Your human manager will support you through it and figure out leave or a new role or whatever else is required. Then there's type 2: You stop coming in. It's not clear what's going on. You don't talk. Different problems every week - your ankle hurts then your dog got bitten by a snake. Then something else and then something else. Then something else. It's endless. Managers... we just don't really know what to do. There's no clear problem. We try things to help you. We try more things. And more. And more. Then it's six months later and we're burnt out and we fire you. But we don't want to. We're still human. We've been there too. So help everyone, be clear and up front. If your manager is kind they'll figure it out. If they're not then you're better off moving on. The medium is also everything. Talk in person, talk over email, talk over chat. Make a phone call. Video. You don't know how people like to communicate. It's easy to take things out of context. Try to connect as much as you can. But don't be afraid. Just level and see what happens. It might be messy and painful like any human interaction but at least you'll work through it. Again - yes, there are psychopath managers. They're not confined to fast food restaurants. The sooner you figure out you have a psycho manager, the better. Just move on and pray for them, in the best way. Truly pray for them to be better because you should be grateful you don't live in the personal hell they seem to. ........ on this: "Hey X, hope you're doing well. Just wanted to check in and see if you'll still be doing N things from here on out, or if you've been spending more time doing ___. If there's anything I can help with please let me know." They're trying to connect with you and balance the corporate written communication balancing act. Be kind. Video call. Chat in person. Find a way to connect and be honest about what's going on and if they're a good person they will help, and if they're not a good person, leave.
• hizxy 5y ago
  Don’t say anything.
• readonthegoapp 5y ago
  I like the idea of asking for a 4-day, 32-hour week. Or 4-day 30-hour week. The 30 hours is important for America -- because of health insurance. If none of that works, try to get 20 hrs/week part time, so you don't starve, go homeless, etc. I doubt it's actually enough to fix burnout, but...worth a shot? I wonder if there are any 9-5 jobs out there that are still interesting -- where you get to do more than just 'x'. I'm thinking - in a comfy corporate setting - the one with health insurance. I guess some jobs are genuinely more interesting than others, but...getting one that you're never going to be seriously considered for -- don't know what the answer is for that. I don't know if it was more Taylor or Ford or whoever, but Adam Smith did warn that capitalism would lead to humans who would naturally lose the desire to do braindead work, and become "as stupid and ignorant as it is possible for a human creature to become." So from that POV, burnout shouldn't surprise. I think managers are on the good/bad spectrum -- but that's totally missing the point. Even if you're sexing your manager, you might get a rude awakening when your performance start's affecting your manager's/sex partner's career. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Take week vacation, or more, maybe you can do a week or two to recharge, unpaid, etc. All the usual stuff applies and likely won't help - eating right, exercise, sleep, socializing, getting outside, enough B12, get blood work done if/while you can, see if you have deficiencies affecting energy levels. Maybe meditation? I'm a believer, but don't do it. Or, try to transfer within the company. Last time I tried that, it didn't work, I stayed too long, should have bounced, was a complete disaster, literally almost killed me, etc. So that's probably my best advice -- try to be willing to consider doing those things which you won't consider doing to support yourself while you un-burn-out -- drive for uber, stocking grocery store shelves, etc. One thing I realized now that I'm an old -- people go thru crazy stuff. Like, I'll say something pretty revealing about some stuff I went thru in life or work or whatever -- casual convo at the bar, American-style, whatever -- and someone will be like, "Oh yeah, me too, but [insert their 10x story here]." I'm like, 'J** F** -- like how are you still here??' :-D People at work have gone thru and are going thru that. BUT...trusting that to your manager? Sometimes it's the only play you got, and usually, imo and experience, I would _not_ recommend playing that card. Instead, you're fine, you're energized, you _love_ your job and always will and are energized for more work -- it's just that you "want new challenges". I feel like it's super-easy to quit yourself out of a job, especially when you're low-energy/depressed/burned-out/intellectually-and-emotionally-defenseless when your manager or your manager's manager says, "So I hear you're not feeling motivated??"
• goodpoint 5y ago
  Related "Burnout Is Real" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27630468 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27630468
• ohyes 5y ago
  Well, the jig is up, as they say. Being absolutely honest about what is going on could work, or it could get her fired. But if she genuinely likes the workplace & people and management is worth staying around for, it can work out fine. “I’m finding this repetitive task combined with the isolation of quarantine is having a negative effect on my productivity. I’m interested in developing new skills to broaden or introduce some variety into my role, is there anything that we could do to make this happen?“ It’s turned from a question about someone’s productivity problems to a question about how much more can I do for the company. 9/10 a good manager will jump at the chance to avoid an awkward “why aren’t we getting the work done?” conversation and have a (much more productive) “let’s help each other out” conversation. It is also very likely that no one has noticed the work is slowing down and it is just a normal sort of check in. Really you should not let it get this far that you feel this negative about the work you are doing. YMMV, & not my fault if you try this and lose the job anyway as loss of job is an expected outcome when you stop doing it. No one should get soulcrushed and discarded, but it does happen frequently. Also, this only applies to the relatively privileged industry of ‘tech’ where you’re expensive to replace and finding anyone competent enough is an incredible chore.
• hutzlibu 5y ago
  "she just doesn't really feel like she can put in the same hours on the same work week in week out anymore, while sitting in our apartment with the sun shining outside" I can relate to that. And my solution is simply to work outside very often. But the conditions need to be right, distraction free. (and of course it depends on the kind of work she is doing) I have a place outside, hidden from sight and noise by rocks and trees. I can only hear the river softly flowing down in the valley - this is just a perfect distraction free environment for me. But I moved specifically to this place, because of those conditions. You say you life in a apartment? Maybe you can rent out a garden plot somewhere, where you can set up a nice place in the shade, so that she can at least spend some working hours outside and not feel trapped inside? This might help in general, whether she stays with the current job, or not.
• cryptica 5y ago
  Ask for a pay raise. Then they'll think you're competent just because they pay you more.
  • sp332 5y ago
    Hey that's not the worst idea. They might also switch up your responsibilities which could get you out of the doldrums.
• kleiba 5y ago
  https://workplace.stackexchange.com/ https://workplace.stackexchange.com/
• NicoJuicy 5y ago
  In our company, they actively try to follow up on people. Not everyone needs this, but in most companies you could just say what's wrong. Eg. In Belgium, it wouldn't be a valid reason to fire someone and i don't think it's in the benefit of the employer. Say what's wrong and try to get a solution. If the company is bad and you don't trust them, look for another company :)
• uh_uh 5y ago
  Could a reduced number of work hours/days work? If she's doing 5 days a week, then trading off one day for 20% of her salary would increase her free time by 50% which might lift her spirits?
• adhdsufferer 5y ago
  >I always lose my job or quit. See a psychologist and/or psychiatrist. This is something you can work through. Whatever issue you’re dealing with, there’s people who are very experienced in helping you figure out what it is and how to start dealing with it. For what it’s worth, you might have ADHD if you’re always quitting or being fired because of an inability to perform to your own abilities. Or you might have some other different issue. But life doesn’t have to be this way. For most people, it isn’t. Many people are scared of seeing mental health professionals because they don’t want to be put on medication. Getting better doesn’t necessarily require medication, but it might be an option. Not all ADHD meds are stimulants. Some like guanfacine, for example, will just improve your executive function and emotional stability without much in the way of side effects. But no one is gonna put you on a chemical cocktail without your consent, and you are free to say you want to try non-medication options before even considering that route. Life doesn’t have to be so hard for an intelligent and capable person. If you work through this you can be happier, more fulfilled, less stressed. That can literally mean extra years on your life. You don’t have to suffer alone. This comment thread is great but beware. People without a mental health issue do not understand what it’s like to have one. They can usually only think about your experiences through analogy to their own normal struggles. Most mental health symptoms, even schizophrenia, exist in some de minimis way in most people. But normal people can’t recognize that the symptoms are so different in severity in people with a disorder that normal function cannot be willed. A normal person is really bored, procrastinates for a bit, and eventually gets it together. They certainly don’t lose job after job at great personal cost to themselves. But someone with ADHD might feel something almost like pain at the prospect of working on a boring task. They might spend hours trying to work on something but just can’t make it happen. Only the intense adrenaline of a new deadline, maybe the third or fourth new deadline for the same task after blowing past previous ones, can make them finally overcome their issues and get to work. That is no way to live, and you don’t have to live like that. Finally, if losing this job would be a serious problem for you, be very careful what you tell anyone at work. You might want to talk to an employment lawyer. As plaintiffs’ lawyers, they will almost certainly charge you nothing for just a quick consult.
  • DataBrokerLol 5y ago
    Many people are scared of seeing mental health professionals because we live in the period of history where these sciences are just starting out, so when someone says "I always lose my job or quit", there is an immediate jump towards diagnosing that person with a mental "illness". The problem is that these diagnoses aren't only happening in error and without consequences on HN. I would argue that it is far more productive to avoid suggesting mental illness as the cause of a behavioral problem unless there is clear reason to do so.
• teekert 5y ago
  It's pretty important what "N things" and "___" actually is. It could just be a manager wanting to make sure priorities are still aligned, I do this all the time. If "___" was "slacking off" then, yeah it's a different story. Calling this "manager speak" feels a bit annoying to me as a (sometimes) manager, I for one, generally would like people to be happy and work on things they like. And I hope people indicate it if they aren't. Everybody goes through waves of increased and decreased motivation, as long as you are aware of it and try to learn from it, it's fine by me.
• brutus1213 5y ago
  I'm really glad to see this discussion on Hacker News. I'd like to point out that this is a two sided coin. I manage people and I am having a hard time with one direct report whose performance is not up to the mark. I've raised the problems gently but seems like the message isn't getting across. If anyone has any book suggestions on how to have some of these conversations and improve performance, I'd really appreciate it.
  • zeepzeep 5y ago
    I wish someone would just clearly tell me if I'm doing bad. Something along the lines of "we think you haven't been performing as well as you used to lately" would be awesome to hear. (Sure it ruins my day, but it might fix a problem before I lose my job.) I'm just not sure if I'm doing well in my job, if I am tell me, if I'm not tell me, just be honest.
    • pavlov 5y ago
      > “we think you haven't been performing as well as you used to lately” Also make sure to qualify this with actual examples of underperformance: “In March you gave a three-week estimate for roadmap item X, but it wasn’t completed until June. Amy from team Y reached out to me several times with questions about its status, so communication hasn’t been up to your usual standard.” If the manager doesn’t give the report something concrete to reflect on, they will only create more vague angst and frustration that will accelerate that person’s exit plans.
      • brutus1213 5y ago
        This is really helpful. What if the engineer says "well .. this is complex and I can't really provide an estimate/depends on availability of an HPC and I have no idea how long the job will be stuck in the queue, etc."? When faced with this type of response I try to dig into the detail but it feels to me the employee gives me more molasses. Any suggestion on how to deal with this situation?
        • 5y ago
• amwelles 5y ago
  > In software this would be the equivalent of just writing components or html for an extended period of time without any variety, which is soulcrushing. This is essentially what I do, and I enjoy it! I like my work to be a bit boring so that I can save my energy and creativity for things outside of work. I convert designs into functional websites. Somebody recently likened my job to being a construction worker or general contractor. Maybe 2-3 times a year I get something challenging, and I either jump at the chance to learn something new (if it’s something interesting or for a client I like) or I dread it (if the documentation is unclear or the client is exceptionally difficult).
• BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  This may come across as naive, but it's my personal policy: be honest. Especially if you want to keep the job. A "web of lies" is difficult to maintain and only adds stress to an already stressful situation. If it lands them in unemployment it was likely inevitable in the short term anyway. As soon as "that feeling" starts, best to keep up with the local job market and be ready to fire off job applications at a moments notice, especially if the money is needed. As regards to maintaining output in mundane work, I think churn is just 'the cost of doing business'. There's always new as-yet-un-jaded graduates making their way into the jobs market.
• lovetocode 5y ago
  > The broader question is, how can a company expect to retain employees/contractors if the only work available is the same tedium over a long period of time, and no way to change that? A job is a means to an end -- nothing more. If you are one of the lucky few that truly enjoy their 9-5 then count your blessings. For the rest of us, we cannot rely on our career to live a fulfilling life. Depression and mental health are not to be taken lightly and often lead to declining work performance. Accept that a job is just that -- a job. Encourage your colleagues who may be down in the dumps to stimulate their spirits outside of work and hopefully the rest will follow.
• ng55QPSK 5y ago
  Question is: What should i say to my manager when her/his performance starts suffering?
  • loopz 5y ago
    Managers already won, no matter what transpires. That's what they don't want you to understand. I got nothing against managers as people. But as a role, it is highly person dependent and most people are utterly bad at it, same as teaching.
• yowlingcat 5y ago
  Leaving aside the existential questions which I have no answer to, I think your partner should take some time off, whether paid or unpaid. There are questions she needs to work through about what she wants, and it's hard to do that when you're still "inside the beast" -- you need some space away from it to make things clear. Once she gets back from her time off, she'll get to the more practical side of things. Companies retain employees for even tedious labor because of labor supply and demand forces. Those forces are strong enough in the direction of labor for certain technical vocations that labor has the advantage. For others, the reverse is sometimes true. You may be seeing that play out in action right now.
• xyzelement 5y ago
  I have been lucky to have managers who want me to succeed and I operate that way myself, so I take the above message at face value. If I am your manager, my goal is to make you long run successful. That means if you are burning out, or are busy doing things that you don't need to worry about - it's my job to help you fix it. What I very often see with people is the metaphorical trash on the floor problem. Being good employees, they pick up a piece of trash in the lobby. This is good. But over time, they may accidentally get sucked in doing janitorial work full time and ignoring their real job. I see the manager's email as looking into this - what is going on with the employee, are they doing something wrong that's stressing them out and how can I help? A lot of people in this thread tell you yo take the managers email at face value and I think they are right at least as the first path. Notice that you are probably reading this wrong as evidenced by your own outcomes - you always lose the job or quit which may be evidence that your ability to navigate this situation is poor. Your instinct to ask others (us) for advice is right and you should stick with it even if the advice feels counter intuitive to you. There's also the question of how you find meaning in your work and I do think it's mainly up to us. If the company needs you to do X and you need the money and can't find another job, then part of your responsibility to yourself is to figure that out. For example, can you do X while learning how to do X more efficiently so you can do it in less time? Can you bond to your colleagues more? Is there truly no lateral movement in the company, etc? My personal experience however is this - people who are genuinely interested in a wide range of experiences and roles already structured their career to maximize that exposure. If someone is mid-career and hasn't bothered to do it , chances are it's not their primary motivator. So likely it's not "the job" that's boring per se, it's the temptation to not work, to be outside in the sun. By the way - have you tried the simplest approach? Take the laptop outside so you can work and enjoy the weather at the same time? I am throwing a lot at the wall here but it's the same advice is give a friend who was "struggling" through this.
• tyingq 5y ago
  Can you clarify this part? "if you've been spending more time doing ___" Is the underlined blank something you aren't supposed to be doing? For example, if the statement was: "Just wanted to check in and see if you'll still be doing new features from here on out, or if you've been spending more time doing work to cut down our tech debt" That could be an innocuous question with no hidden criticism. Just curiosity about who is doing what. I'd ask for clarification if that were the case: "Yes, I've been working on tech debt items, as I can see that nobody else is. Is my intuition right, or would you rather I work on new features?"
• deleted 5y ago
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• utahcon 5y ago
  I don't have "the answer" but I will share my current experience with you. I have worked for the company I am with for ~5 years, and I usually take a large chunk of time (2-3 weeks) off at the end of the year to recover and reset. Because of the nature of my work I am pretty busy the rest of the year to take more than a few days at a time for any vacation (read: I work while on vacation). This year my client was particularly pushy and wanted a butt in a seat over the holidays, and because I was the newest on the contract I was selected to be the person who stayed. This bumped my year end reset into the next year (which almost didn't happen at all). Come the end of May, I realized I was burned out, only by the way of my clients complaining, and not understanding why I couldn't sit down and give a damn about my work. I realized I had to do something, or else the cycle would continue and I would end up without a job. I reached out to my manager and said what was going on. Told him I am burned out, I need to take a vacation, I need to get right. My manager took this news with grace, told me to tell my client I would be out sick the rest of the week, and to take PTO the following week. YMMV, but I can tell you that if you are in a good company and they truly value you, you will get the support you need. Many managers are coming around to the idea that people burn out, and that we need time away from keyboards, phones, and having to worry about work, to truly recover. If your manager isn't receptive to this, that is a good sign you need to take some time, and look for a new position as well. If you can afford the time, take a week or two between jobs (if you end up leaving), to recover and not just head into your new position with the same burn out you are currently experiencing. I wish you luck, and hope you are able to get the help/rest you need.
  • nikanj 5y ago
    Jesus the US work-life balance really is off. You take 2-3 weeks off once per year, and even that can be bumped if your customer doesn't allow it.
• brundolf 5y ago
  > To me, it just seems like disingenuous manager speak for "I've noticed that you're slumping, and really there are not other options, but let me know if you're planning on quitting or doing less". Wow wow wow, no. I mean I guess it's always possible that anything could be disingenuous, but to me this sounds like a manager who genuinely wants to come to an understanding and figure out what they can do to make things better for everyone, you included. A good manager understands that people can only be at their most productive when they're happy and working on things that play to their interests and strengths. Firing someone and hiring someone else is extremely expensive. Nine times out of ten they genuinely want to help. Let them! > The broader question is, how can a company expect to retain employees/contractors if the only work available is the same tedium over a long period of time, and no way to change that? Most companies I've worked at are happy to let someone shift to another area, for the exact reasons I outlined above (if you communicate with them that you're bored!). If you have specific knowledge that the company in question won't do that then, well, maybe it is time to move on. But why would you just assume they won't be open to it? At the very least raise the subject before quitting!
• pyuser583 5y ago
  Sounds like you need to be more careful about the jobs you accept. Make sure it’s a good fit.
• deleted 5y ago
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• staysaasy 5y ago
  Some quick thoughts: * Is there another reaction? Depends on what "doing ____" is? If it's recreational (e.g. daydreaming) that's it's whole own problem (and it is a problem). If it's another task on the job (e.g. spending more time working with team Y than us - which happens with ad-hoc resource allocation), it's normal IMO. * More broadly, re: tedium - it depends on the role and the expectations that were set. Some companies have roles that are not meant to be grown out of, but simply left. * Also, re: just doing a worse job over time - I don't think that's the only option. We all do things that are repetitive (e.g. wash the dishes). Many get better over time, many get worse, many just do the same quality forever.
• davidgerard 5y ago
  Surprised at all the managers here who are well-intentioned, but don't seem to understand that there's a power imbalance here that means even innocuous, carefully-phrased sentences must first be checked for threats.