4 ms·

> [...] but the semantics of this seemingly "declarative" configuration was never properly specified. What's missing from docs like [0] that makes you say that

by tpush 5y ago

> [...] but the semantics of this seemingly "declarative" configuration was never properly specified. What's missing from docs like [0] that makes you say that? [0] https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.unit.html https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.uni...

eesmith 5y ago
I know so very little of systemd as it doesn't touch anything I do. I can pattern match that https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/ https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/ - "Structural and semantic deficiencies in the systemd architecture for real-world service management, a technical treatise" from six years ago (Discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10370348 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10370348 ) might be relevant. Are those points reasonable? Dunno. If so, have they been addressed? No clue.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2020/05/02/0/ https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2020/05/02/0/ is a 2020 post from the same blog, pointing out that these issues basically remain unaddressed. But again, this is not just some "anti-systemd" talking point; the pro-systemd side also acknowledges this! They just think sysv-init was even worse.
  - zxzax 5y ago
    I honestly would like to see a better service manager than systemd, but just my opinion from following development of these things: a huge reason why it can't happen comes from underlying deficiencies in the kernel, and with Unix. The real core issues can't be addressed without a large amount of changes there, which are outside the control of a service manager.
    - nine_k 5y ago
      I'd love to see a later development of a proper system manager that learns from systemd's faults and allows for compatible interfaces for transition. Much like Pipewire exposes PulseAudio interfaces but is implemented differently.
      - zxzax 5y ago
        To me it's the other way around -- pipewire is the sound server equivalent of systemd. For better or for worse.
        nine_k 5y ago
        What would you prefer then? Jack?
        zxzax 5y ago
        I just use systemd and pipewire, it's not a problem for me personally. They're the worst options... except for all the others :)

by tpush 5y ago

eesmith 5y ago

I know so very little of systemd as it doesn't touch anything I do. I can pattern match that https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/ https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/ - "Structural and semantic deficiencies in the systemd architecture for real-world service management, a technical treatise" from six years ago (Discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10370348 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10370348 ) might be relevant. Are those points reasonable? Dunno. If so, have they been addressed? No clue.

zozbot234 5y ago
https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2020/05/02/0/ https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2020/05/02/0/ is a 2020 post from the same blog, pointing out that these issues basically remain unaddressed. But again, this is not just some "anti-systemd" talking point; the pro-systemd side also acknowledges this! They just think sysv-init was even worse.
- zxzax 5y ago
  I honestly would like to see a better service manager than systemd, but just my opinion from following development of these things: a huge reason why it can't happen comes from underlying deficiencies in the kernel, and with Unix. The real core issues can't be addressed without a large amount of changes there, which are outside the control of a service manager.
  - nine_k 5y ago
    I'd love to see a later development of a proper system manager that learns from systemd's faults and allows for compatible interfaces for transition. Much like Pipewire exposes PulseAudio interfaces but is implemented differently.
    - zxzax 5y ago
      To me it's the other way around -- pipewire is the sound server equivalent of systemd. For better or for worse.
      - nine_k 5y ago
        What would you prefer then? Jack?
        zxzax 5y ago
        I just use systemd and pipewire, it's not a problem for me personally. They're the worst options... except for all the others :)