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It looks like different people (probably including recipe writers) mean different things by "caramelized onions", which could be the origin of the issue. I'm no

It looks like different people (probably including recipe writers) mean different things by "caramelized onions", which could be the origin of the issue. I'm not saying one is wrong and the other is right, just that there's obviously disparity.

rat9988 5y ago
Many people confuse fried and caramelized onion. What the op showed is definitely not caramelized. Any recipe book in the market wouldn't confuse them.
Eric_WVGG 5y ago
I will tell you which is wrong and which is right. Caramelized onions are caramelized. It’s not a vague definition that varies across cultures, it’s right there in the name. Caramel, it’s deep walnut brown and almost candy sweet. Just look up any photo of French onion soup. This guy is frying onions, might as well prepare a bowl of Froot Loops and you’ll be just as close to caramelized onions.
- phonypc 5y ago
  Except caramelized onions aren't caramelized. Or not meaningfully anyway. The color comes from Maillard browning. The sweetness comes from breaking down larger sugars into smaller, and concentration through evaporation of water. Caramelization products aren't sweet, they're primarily bitter. Sweetness in caramel products comes from residual sugar that hasn't been caramelized.
mcphage 5y ago
> different people (probably including recipe writers) mean different things by "caramelized onions" No, ‘caramelized onions’ is a standard term. The issue is not one of confusion.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  “Exponentially more”, “decimate”, and “increased by 200% [to mean doubled]” are also standard terms which are used in a variety of contexts, often (usually?) incorrectly as compared to their actual definition.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    Are those words used loosely, in cookery? No, because it's a field in which the technicalities matter.
  - nwallin 5y ago
    If I'm a Roman general, and I have two captains, each with 1,000 soldiers, and I tell them their troops lacked discipline in the last battle, and I order them to decimate their troops, and one of them comes back with 100 soldiers and the other comes back with 900 soldiers, I am going to have a long conversation with them about how words have meanings. If I'm a chef, and I have two line cooks, each with an onion, and I tell them that their onions will need to be prepared for French onion soup, and I order them to caramelize their onion, and one comes back in 10 minutes and the other comes back in 45 minutes, I am going to have a long conversation with them about how words having meanings. This isn't a random context, this is the context where the term "caramelize" is technical jargon.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      That’s exactly my point. Far more cookbooks and subscriptions can be sold to “people who cook” than to “professional chefs who rigorously and precisely follow the literal definition of terms which once had a specific meaning and now colloquially encompass a much broader range of meaning”. (Imprecise language bugs the hell out me as well, but it seems like it’s easier for me to bend than to attempt to fix all the humans.)
      - nwallin 5y ago
        I don't understand your point at all. I can be mowing my lawn when it's 110F outside and say, "Gosh, I'm boiling." But if a recipe tells me to "boil" something, and it means anything other than put it in 212F water with heat applied in such a way that the water is bubbling, then the recipe is a shitty recipe, and I will diagnose the author with a confusion of the mind. The fact that the term now encompasses a much broader range of meaning in other contexts is completely irrelevant: I am not in those other contexts, in this context, it is a word with a very specific meaning.
- SamBam 5y ago
  No, it's precisely the opposite. The issue is exactly that recipe quotes frequently write "caramelized" when they mean "browned." Yes, there is a technical definition of "caramelized." No, not every recipe writer uses this definition. Look, when a recipe says "caramelize the onions for ten minutes" then there is something wrong, right? It's either the time or the word. Why does everyone learn the "true" definition of "caramelize" and then start assuming that the author must have used the right word and the wrong time, and that what they actually want you to do is sit there tending to onions for 45 minutes? The VAST majority of recipes, particularly Italian or French, neither require nor want caramelized onions. Unless it's a recipe like French Onion Soup, the vast majority of such recipes want softened or browned onions. Take this from someone who has cooked in Italy and France for nearly 35 years.
SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> I'm not saying one is wrong and the other is right, just that there's obviously disparity. As other replies hints at, "caramelize" is not a judgement call or varying definition; it's specific thing, a particular chemical reaction on sugar. if it hasn't happened then the onions are not "caramelised" and they actually are wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization
- AbrahamParangi 5y ago
  The fact that there’s a long debate about the definition of caramelize might be a hint that people don’t agree about what it means.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    The Wikipedia article isn't long. if you're referring to the "long debate" here on HN, then no, it doesn't mean very much about the facts of the matter. original article doesn't debate the definition of caramelize, rather is about how it can be achieved. Some things such as "pleasant music" or "good food" do not have crisp definitions. However, chemical reactions are far more clear-cut. They can be described and measured accurately, and debate settled. It doesn't matter how "long" the debate is, there are correct answers. The only debate that IMHO I can see is "what percentage of the sugar has to be caramelized before it counts as a caramelized onion" ? Are there terms for partly and totally caramelized onions?
  - ycombobreaker 5y ago
    It's similar to the debate about "begging the question.". Enough people misuse/misunderstand the phrase that the intended meaning becomes vague: did the author really mean "beg" or "raise"? It doesn't make the incorrect usage correct, but it does mean correct interpretation of _intent_ requires acknowledging incorrect _vocabulary_.
    - kbelder 5y ago
      That reminds me of the pronunciation of GIF. There's enough people pronouncing it incorrectly that the incorrect version became an acceptable alternative.
lm28469 5y ago
This is what caramelized onions look like: https://jessicainthekitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/How-to-Caramelize-Onions-2.jpg https://jessicainthekitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/H... OP's video looks like fried onions with slightly burned sides. Just like you can't bake a cake at 1000 degrees for 5 min instead of 200 degrees for 25 minutes, you can't caramelize onions in 5 or 10 minutes no matter the heat
exporectomy 5y ago
Haha. I read larsrc's confident comment and thought, ah, the blogger must have been wrong. Then got to the equally confident replies and realized everyone's confident and coherent on HN (vs confident and ranting looney on the general internet) and I need to calibrate my gullibility :P
- bombcar 5y ago
  Assume 99% of everyone on the internet is wrong and incorrecting each other. And yes this means if half say C and half say Not-C they both are 99% wrong. :)
dalbasal 5y ago
No. This is exactly what the author is arguing. This isn't word problem. These recipes call for slow cooked onions. Rogan josh, onion soup...

rat9988 5y ago

Many people confuse fried and caramelized onion. What the op showed is definitely not caramelized. Any recipe book in the market wouldn't confuse them.

Eric_WVGG 5y ago

I will tell you which is wrong and which is right. Caramelized onions are caramelized. It’s not a vague definition that varies across cultures, it’s right there in the name. Caramel, it’s deep walnut brown and almost candy sweet. Just look up any photo of French onion soup. This guy is frying onions, might as well prepare a bowl of Froot Loops and you’ll be just as close to caramelized onions.

phonypc 5y ago
Except caramelized onions aren't caramelized. Or not meaningfully anyway. The color comes from Maillard browning. The sweetness comes from breaking down larger sugars into smaller, and concentration through evaporation of water. Caramelization products aren't sweet, they're primarily bitter. Sweetness in caramel products comes from residual sugar that hasn't been caramelized.

mcphage 5y ago

> different people (probably including recipe writers) mean different things by "caramelized onions" No, ‘caramelized onions’ is a standard term. The issue is not one of confusion.

sokoloff 5y ago
“Exponentially more”, “decimate”, and “increased by 200% [to mean doubled]” are also standard terms which are used in a variety of contexts, often (usually?) incorrectly as compared to their actual definition.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  Are those words used loosely, in cookery? No, because it's a field in which the technicalities matter.
- nwallin 5y ago
  If I'm a Roman general, and I have two captains, each with 1,000 soldiers, and I tell them their troops lacked discipline in the last battle, and I order them to decimate their troops, and one of them comes back with 100 soldiers and the other comes back with 900 soldiers, I am going to have a long conversation with them about how words have meanings. If I'm a chef, and I have two line cooks, each with an onion, and I tell them that their onions will need to be prepared for French onion soup, and I order them to caramelize their onion, and one comes back in 10 minutes and the other comes back in 45 minutes, I am going to have a long conversation with them about how words having meanings. This isn't a random context, this is the context where the term "caramelize" is technical jargon.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    That’s exactly my point. Far more cookbooks and subscriptions can be sold to “people who cook” than to “professional chefs who rigorously and precisely follow the literal definition of terms which once had a specific meaning and now colloquially encompass a much broader range of meaning”. (Imprecise language bugs the hell out me as well, but it seems like it’s easier for me to bend than to attempt to fix all the humans.)
    - nwallin 5y ago
      I don't understand your point at all. I can be mowing my lawn when it's 110F outside and say, "Gosh, I'm boiling." But if a recipe tells me to "boil" something, and it means anything other than put it in 212F water with heat applied in such a way that the water is bubbling, then the recipe is a shitty recipe, and I will diagnose the author with a confusion of the mind. The fact that the term now encompasses a much broader range of meaning in other contexts is completely irrelevant: I am not in those other contexts, in this context, it is a word with a very specific meaning.
SamBam 5y ago
No, it's precisely the opposite. The issue is exactly that recipe quotes frequently write "caramelized" when they mean "browned." Yes, there is a technical definition of "caramelized." No, not every recipe writer uses this definition. Look, when a recipe says "caramelize the onions for ten minutes" then there is something wrong, right? It's either the time or the word. Why does everyone learn the "true" definition of "caramelize" and then start assuming that the author must have used the right word and the wrong time, and that what they actually want you to do is sit there tending to onions for 45 minutes? The VAST majority of recipes, particularly Italian or French, neither require nor want caramelized onions. Unless it's a recipe like French Onion Soup, the vast majority of such recipes want softened or browned onions. Take this from someone who has cooked in Italy and France for nearly 35 years.

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

> I'm not saying one is wrong and the other is right, just that there's obviously disparity. As other replies hints at, "caramelize" is not a judgement call or varying definition; it's specific thing, a particular chemical reaction on sugar. if it hasn't happened then the onions are not "caramelised" and they actually are wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization

AbrahamParangi 5y ago
The fact that there’s a long debate about the definition of caramelize might be a hint that people don’t agree about what it means.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  The Wikipedia article isn't long. if you're referring to the "long debate" here on HN, then no, it doesn't mean very much about the facts of the matter. original article doesn't debate the definition of caramelize, rather is about how it can be achieved. Some things such as "pleasant music" or "good food" do not have crisp definitions. However, chemical reactions are far more clear-cut. They can be described and measured accurately, and debate settled. It doesn't matter how "long" the debate is, there are correct answers. The only debate that IMHO I can see is "what percentage of the sugar has to be caramelized before it counts as a caramelized onion" ? Are there terms for partly and totally caramelized onions?
- ycombobreaker 5y ago
  It's similar to the debate about "begging the question.". Enough people misuse/misunderstand the phrase that the intended meaning becomes vague: did the author really mean "beg" or "raise"? It doesn't make the incorrect usage correct, but it does mean correct interpretation of _intent_ requires acknowledging incorrect _vocabulary_.
  - kbelder 5y ago
    That reminds me of the pronunciation of GIF. There's enough people pronouncing it incorrectly that the incorrect version became an acceptable alternative.

lm28469 5y ago

This is what caramelized onions look like: https://jessicainthekitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/How-to-Caramelize-Onions-2.jpg https://jessicainthekitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/H... OP's video looks like fried onions with slightly burned sides. Just like you can't bake a cake at 1000 degrees for 5 min instead of 200 degrees for 25 minutes, you can't caramelize onions in 5 or 10 minutes no matter the heat

exporectomy 5y ago

Haha. I read larsrc's confident comment and thought, ah, the blogger must have been wrong. Then got to the equally confident replies and realized everyone's confident and coherent on HN (vs confident and ranting looney on the general internet) and I need to calibrate my gullibility :P

bombcar 5y ago
Assume 99% of everyone on the internet is wrong and incorrecting each other. And yes this means if half say C and half say Not-C they both are 99% wrong. :)

dalbasal 5y ago

No. This is exactly what the author is arguing. This isn't word problem. These recipes call for slow cooked onions. Rogan josh, onion soup...